Sax on the Web Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I read a lot of good about conn saxes,
I found a page on amazon that seemingly sells conns,
Are these the same saxes as the popular ones?

Which of these would you buy? (please no suggestions to get a second hand one, thanks).

Amazon link

I just searched for conn, but seemingly other saxes also show up, including Selmer saxes...
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,336 Posts
In a word no. The most valued Conns are the vintage models made prior to 1950. The modern Conns at best are below average student saxes in the quality of design and construction and in the way they play.

Grumps posted while I was typing.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
I suppose the "Selmer Prelude" saxes are worse than the conns?(since they are even cheaper), or are the preludes conns?

It's all so complicated!
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,981 Posts
Junk is junk...basically...regardless of which name is engraved on it.

Are you looking for a reasonably priced, NEW horn ?

...there are plenty of threads about those. Some jolly-good blokes have spent some time on this.

Pete Thomas's site does a good job of sussing out some decent and cheap new ones:

http://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-buying-advice.html

...then Stephen Howard, as well....

http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/

.... then there's also Barone which get favorable reviews....and he's a good guy....

Of course....an older Conn is a better choice (and I would be inclined to agree with Artstove...even late 60's Conns are still very solid, mostly)....

...but for some reason (which I have a hard time figuring out :| )...some folks with limited budgets really insist on buying a NEW horn....although vintage gives so much better bang-for-the-buck, particularly in the budget-range prices.

(please no suggestions to get a second hand one, thanks).
.....okay......:mrgreen:
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
2,597 Posts
I suppose the "Selmer Prelude" saxes are worse than the conns?(since they are even cheaper), or are the preludes conns?

It's all so complicated!
Conn is part of Selmer now. A lot of American instrument companies went out of business or got taken over in the late '60s and early '70s, and either the brand disappeared or production got shifted overseas. This happened to Conn, King, Buescher, Martin. A similar thing happened to some of the European manufacturers. That is one reason why some folks like vintage saxes - they were hand-crafted in a way that is either no longer available or simply too expensive.

More recently the Taiwanese and now Chinese manufacturers are making better horns, typically made for someone else's label. So you probably won't know who is actually making a particular horn. As JayeSF points out, there are threads in which folks discuss which of the new horns are good players/values. I haven't played the cheaper Asian horns, but the ones that seem to get favorable mentions include the Bauhaus Walstein, Barone, Kessler, and MaxTone.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I find it strange to see in this forum that when I ask about certain horns, certain people say it's a wonderful horn , with 'pro' feats (that I don't really need), like some sort of enhancers on the valves, and reinforced rings and rods, and a high G or something, and they play in tone, straight in line with the tuner and so,
And I get all these good responses and reviews from people, and when I go on this site, seemingly the only sax people have been telling me as a starters sax is the Yamaha YAS-23 sold for $1300.
Now, to me that would be a pro instrument.
Most entry non woodwind instruments are sold below 500, and are good for beginners.
Bass, piano, guitars, the good models that you use when you have a small band, are around $800.
It is really a shame that a student should pay nearly $1300 to buy a new sax that barely goes through this forum's rating.
In the past I had a $265 alto sax which I was very content of, except the mouthpiece which I switched for another easier one, forgot what model.
The only thing this sax had was it was out of tune in the lower end, the low Bb and B where not in tune. As a starter I was very content of this sax, and it lasted me the full 3 months after which I had to sell it to a guy who used it in his recordings with another mouthpiece.
He was able to manipulate the reed so the lower notes would be in tune.

In any case, I'm very sure a $265 sax like mine would be bashed all over the forum should the company have continued making them.
Yet the musician that bought the sax from me, who's been playing since his 14th, so for a good 12 years, he was very content with it, it somewhat surprised him in a good way, and he immediately told me the good and the bad, the bad was the mpc, which I switched for another, and the lower notes.

I've heard a lot of people saying that current Chinese saxes are a lot better, and they start to make some quality gear, but every time I mention a sax, even those that are priced over $800 (That is on a super deal, because elsewhere they are sold for 1200, MRSP $1800), the only thing I hear is bad, bad, bad...

It seems, sorry to say, but that there are users in this forum that feel the need to say that anything lower than the Yamaha YAS-23 for a student is crap.

Well, I'd have to say, if I was fairly happy with my $265 sax, I can only guess I will be happy as well with a $800 horn; and those people who comment that I'd have to get a good $100-$200 ready for monthly repairs, I honestly don't believe neither!
Those joints and rods holding the valves of these saxes generally can last several years, even if they are made of an inferior quality metal.
And even if they would only last 2 years, I would still be happy, because it's my first horn. If I can save $500 on my first horn by buying cheap 'crap', perhaps those 2 years are long enough for me to grow to start appreciating the feats on higher end models.

I think many people have forgotten what it is to be a complete beginner. Someone who started with a budget of $300 so he could buy a sax, good or bad, and play it long enough to form his own opinions about his instrument, train his ear, so that when he's ready 2 years from now he could start understanding why he would need a fancy sax.

Since I'm mainly a bass player, most basses in the early days where sold very expensive. At one time a brand popped up, called Squier. They created both the worst bass in history for the lowest price I've ever seen a bass being sold ($80), as well as a model that looked and sounded 90% Fender, for 20% their price.
That bass has received tremendous negative reviews from opinionated bassists. Until I actually bought it, and was full of praise!
The friends that knew me, and heard the bass, and even some that just knew me from forums, started spreading the rumors, that there was this one model from Squier every bassist should at least try.
I believe in 2 years the negative rumors of this cheap bass where completely eliminated, and today it is the most sold bass worldwide!

If you have time take a look at the $275 Squier vintage jazz bass, with a poly urethane neck, very new in the bass world, but an excellent buy!
I can easily compare this bass to a $600-$800 bass of another brand.
I really suggested this bass to all new beginners.

And I believe that even with saxes, there must be those models that are like a gem amongst the rocks, cheap, normal build, and good sounding.

For those that are careful with their saxes, there may not be a need to have reinforced rods, super reliable gear...
I mean Behringer was exactly the same,
Everyone hated behringer gear because it always broke down, but any sound engineer I've ever talked to, said the same things;
Behringer makes excellent electronic gear, for those who know how to use it!
Problem is most people don't know how to use their gear.
At one time behringer released a bass amp, with 2x10" speakers, rated 400W. Any common sense guy would know that was a peak rating, because Behringer does not have high power drivers. Some connected those speakers to a 400W amp and blew them on their first night.
If one does not know how to use his material, don't blame the company.

If one knows how to take care for his gear, his gear will last him a long time.
In fact, I'm pretty sure that some of the cheaper, less high rated saxes out there might last just as long in the hands of a careful person, as a yamaha or selmer in the hands of a brute!

And what a lot of people also seem to forget is that yes, there may be brands with a 20% 'broken within a year' rate, and those are probably the only ones they see in repairshops.
If you visit repairshops, and every week there's another Selmer for repairs, you'd start thinking that selmers must be very bad saxes indeed, while you may not know that the selmers that return are less than 1% of the total, and that perhaps te other 99% will never see a repairshop.
to some extend this is also true for cheap brand saxes, though their repair rate might be higher, there still will be those that will never enter a repairs shop.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
480 Posts
I started to type a long response then summed it up to this:

You MIGHT get lucky and get a good, cheap, new saxophone. Chances are, you won't.
Get your head out of your *** and look in the used market. Under $500, there are many great second-hand saxes out there.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
dahh, I wished I could thumb down some of these pushy sales people...

I don't know what I need to do to make people understand I'm TOTALLY NOT interested in second hand stuff.
Perhaps these people need to put their heads out of their asses, and realize there are people out there with other opinions.

Just like I never feel comfortable in second hand clothes, I never feel comfortable with a second hand sax. And that just won't change regardless of the benefits of second hand.
I just had too many negative experiences with second hand stuff, that buying second hand no longer is an option for me.

Next time perhaps read the original thread before wasting your time on writing a reply that would be disregarded anyways... Sorry to sound harsh but you are about the ninth person suggesting this to me, who should have known I wasn't looking for that.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
I was thinking the same thing. :)
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,981 Posts
...You MIGHT get lucky and get a good, cheap, new saxophone. Chances are, you won't.
Get your head out of your *** and look in the used market. Under $500, there are many great second-hand saxes out there.
I concur...if you really want a GOOD instrument for a limited budget, this is the route. Not being pushy...nor a salesperson (the nice thing about running your own biz is, you get to choose who you sell to, also...if you get my drift).

You just began your thread veering into very dangerous waters...and for goodness sake, your initial misunderstanding led to an immediate discussion of the quality of vintage vs. new !!!

NOW...I understand what you are saying. A solid enough instrument will serve OK. And it will...I agree with that. And I believe you...I bet a Squier IS better than a lot of $700 basses out there.
But, a Squier is just that...a cheap instrument that will serve OK ( I have played bass for 35 years). You get what you paid for, and it'll fill the role as a Bass in most instances. It's OK, for what it is. But, a lotta times folks want to maximize what their $ can buy.

Yes, you are CORRECT. The absurdity of a Yas 23 costing $1400 new....it is befuddling...truly. And the absurdity of any new asian-made low-end beginner sorta horn costing over $500 ...also...baffling.
So, when people suggest used or vintage...it's because you can spend your $300 on NEW...and you will get something pretty darn awful.

So...it's a fork in the road which people come to quite often here, really. And folks sorta directed you towards both forks earlier in this thread.
....there are also tons of threads here were folks defend the cheap-o offshore horns and claim they couldn't be happier....

Some of your points are well-put and well-taken. Some of them...miss the point a bit, also.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
480 Posts
Next time perhaps read the original thread before wasting your time on writing a reply that would be disregarded anyways...
I did read the original post. We just want to help you realize that what you want is unreasonable.

Oh, and good job disregarding it with an entire post dedicated to a response.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
17,981 Posts
Just out of curiosity...ProDigit...what is the point you are trying to make here ? Because, generally speaking...this Forum tends to have pretty focused and linear sorta conversations....as opposed to the typical bulletin-board/blogosphere wordspray that most other chat forums seem to thrive on......

You mistook a crappy asian horn with an old name for a good horn. You were corrected. Then it was suggested that if you have limited funds, you have 2 options. New. Vintage. Then some opinions and resources were given to you.

This is all pretty simple...no ?

:scratch:Second hand clothing ?
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Well, as you may know, I've started a few threads already of different saxes. To hear opinions. I honestly am tired of hearing the second hand opinion in every thread I want to talk about a new instrument.
But that aside, currently there are a couple of saxes on my list, that I selected as high possibility that I'll buy one of them:

Orpheo JazzBerry tenor sax for 650, i like the color and shape, and looks good to me. Orpheo has many lower saxes than these that are welcomed by beginners and teachers.
The Orpheo also has a similar model Alto sax I find interesting.

LA Sax Series 1 for 995, is a bit expensive, but probably the best sax for the price, good looking too (I love the golden keys on the black lacquer body)

Cecilio 2Series TS-280LN for 520. Not one of their colored saxes, another model that is a bit higher in price.

And a last one Selmer prelude TS-711 which is kind of the boring golden design, but it's a selmer...
I tend to shy the selmer a bit though, because it says 'Student sax', and I am more looking for one to play in a band (so with those resonators on the keypads).

I believe that once I buy the sax, get a ~$100 (I suspect it will be a ) vandoren mouthpiece, and some fitting reeds, and let the sax be set up in a local music store; that any of these saxes will be very playable, sounding very good, and will certainly suffice for me!
I expect nearly all mechanical problems can be solved by a good sax technician.

I mean getting someone set up my sax will not cost me a fortune, neither a good mouthpiece and reed.

I find it too bad for those that make a living out of selling second hand scrap, but that's just the way the economy is going.
People rather buy a new radio, than repair or buy another one of those old vacuum tube amps, nomatter how much "better" they sound, and same goes here for saxes.
the problem is that too many 'oldies' have been stuck in the rut of buying and selling second hand gear that they can not see beyond their ideals.
And on this forum I become more and more aware that this mentality is a requirement for communicating with eachother. If not, you're an ignorant.
I think this is plainly wrong, and old fashioned thinking!

I have nothing against being opinionated, but in this forum I find it goes a step beyond normality.

Thinking outside the box is a sign of the time, less and less people will put value on old saxes, regardless of their age, playability, brand, or if John Travolta once secretly played this sax when he was young and now you want to sell it to me for 3x the original value.
And partly because they don't have to, because I believe many beginner brands will start tearing down the pro market by offering intermediate saxes that sound just as good, if not better than pro's for a fraction of the price. same on the entry vs intermediate market.
The modern mind just will look to new, advanced, many options, unique, shiny, and good quality sound comes last because even a bad sax with a good mouthpiece still sounds acceptable, and a bad build, fixed by a technician would last me at least a year with no probs!


China has come a long way; but before you start panicking about all saxes are going to be purchased in china and the US market and quality will be lost, no,
Chinese workers receive wage increases, and the chinese Yuan is rising rapidly. That means that in a couple of years most chinese products will cost about as much in the stores here, as the american products will, and long before that'd happen, chinese products will most likely be as scarce as european products are in the US.
My estimation is that in 15 years china will have near to 90% of the quality of US products (almost like Japan today), for 75% the price.
Many would rather buy the real deal.
Probably other countries like Malaysia, vietnam will take china's place, but they will follow the same path as china did before them.

Now that was me ranting some blogosphere type of talk.:soapbox::argue:
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
248 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
pieces of oxidized scrap I tell ya, with 3 layers of fungus and another man's spit in em! (now I am opinionated, pushed to total abhorration of those who tried to get me on their side)!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,526 Posts
ProDigit,

You are under-informed and inexperienced in regards to saxophones - playing or otherwise. Those who have chimed in so far have soooo much more time behind their horn(s). Many of them have played dozens and dozens of different model saxophones.

I say back up and realize that we are trying to help you, not attack you. There are ALOT of knowledgeable folks around here who are extremely willing to share what took them many years to learn.

I say be grateful that they offer their time to help.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top