[Krash2]

I recently bought a Conn straight neck C melody (83xxx) in surprisingly good condition other than generally needing an overhaul. The horn was obviously well cared for by its previous owner(s), so I'm suspicious that the pad heights, which are consistently very high, were probably set like that on purpose (white pads with no resonators). Included with the horn were Hentof and Conn Eagle mouthpieces. Does anyone have experience or insight into the pad heights on these instruments? My natural inclination is to lower them somewhat to be more like what I'd do on an old Conn or Martin alto, but first I'm curious about why they're set the way they are now.
Thanks in advance for any advice.
Charlie Koster
San Gabriel, CA

 

[sparq]

One member had this to say:
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-Mouthpieces&p=4132836&viewfull=1#post4132836

 

[Bkenes]

It looks like it may be the original pads. Or at least 50 years + old. Probably from the 20s-40s!
The key heights seems to be a bit high... But that should probably be the least of your worries, with pads that old.

 

[milandro]

I think someone wast trying to “ open up” the sound of the horn, the reason may have been in some intrinsic stuffiness ( some people credit C melodies of such thing, I don’t) or the pads not having reflectors.

Well carde for almost 100 years may have been played very little, and there may lay the reason for such a thing too...

 

[PigSquealer]

+1 common to try and make one brighter. Appears to have original pads that have seen better days.
Get a Pad set from Music Medic with flat metal resonators.

 

[saxoclese]

My stock answer is to set the height of the RH F key at 8.4mm to be in line with Yamaha's recommended key height for that key on both alto and tenor. Regulation and removing lost motion will automatically set the key heights for the rest of the stack keys. This will provide a good "starting point". To open them more just requires sanding the cork on the key feet. To close them more just glue a thin felt to the body under the feet.

 

[perina14]

I agree with Saxoclese that the factory Yamaha key heights are a very good starting point. I use them when working on flutes particularly. Good luck with the horn.

 

[Bkenes]

I use Curt Altaracs method of setting key heights. That works very well.
Have a read if you want it to play perfectly. It's a lot of text and a bit more work but it's totally worth it.
https://musicmedic.com/setting-key-heights-with-the-balanced-venting-method

 

[abadcliche]

be careful with those pads; they look like the ones with lead foil backing (that has by now turned to fragments and dust).

https://www.thesax.info/piwigo/_data/i/upload/2014/09/15/20140915203841-04558012-me.jpg

 

[abadcliche]

Something I wrote elsewhere about key heights:

Something to remember when messing with key heights: The key heights determine where you place your mouthpiece on the cork to tune to your tuning note, so (for example) raising the heights would also mean you would be pulling your mouthpiece out farther than before to be in tune on your tuning note, which creates an entirely different set of relationships between the mouthpiece and the first open tonehole of each note than before, since that relationship is not linear (pushing your mouthpiece in 1/4" means more for a palm D than it does for a low C, and the internal volume of your mouthpiece has more of an effect on the fundamental and pushing in or pulling out changes the functional interior volume as well). Lots of burbles and gurgles and stuffy sections are due to incorrect key heights causing the mouthpiece to be in the wrong place making the sounding column the wrong length and volume. However this relationship is not often thought of that way, and intonational deficiencies are not often thought of as part of a system but rather treated symptomatically on a less foundational level, for example crescents (which I personally think of as a neon sign that key heights are incorrect). Because if your key heights are correct and you are playing a reasonable mouthpiece for your instrument (which is a fairly wide spectrum if you are voicing the notes with your throat as you ought to be), your mouthpiece placement will be in the right place for not just your tuning note but for the rest of the horn to be in alignment both length- and volume-wise. This is how key heights work- as a system that guides you to place your mouthpiece in the right spot. Not as a volume knob.

 

[PigSquealer]

be careful with those pads; they look like the ones with lead foil backing (that has by now turned to fragments and dust).

https://www.thesax.info/piwigo/_data/i/upload/2014/09/15/20140915203841-04558012-me.jpg

Is this the metal ring described in this article?

 

[saxoclese]

As a key opening is increased the tone becomes less "stuffy" and the pitch goes higher. This change takes place until the opening is approximately 1/3 of the diameter of the tonehole. Raising the key more than that distance has no further effect on the tone or the pitch. There are some who claim that giving the keys an extreme opening increases the maximum volume and "projection" possible on the instrument. I can't comment on that since I don't play music that requires me to play as loud as the saxophone can play for an extended length of time.

I don't subscribe to the notion that on some saxophones lower keyheights make the instrument play/sound better. This is contrary to the idea that each note on the saxophone should speak clearly and with an "open voice". I once measured the tonehole diameters of the stack keys on a YAS-23, took 33% of that distance and compared that to Yamaha's recommended key heights for those keys. There was significant correlation when comparing those two figures. I take that to mean that the designers and acoustic engineers at Yamaha have a good understanding of how to "set-up" their saxophones based upon sound acoustic principles.

The more I learn about the acoustics of the saxophone the closer I come to understanding how complex all of the various relationships that go into making a great playing instrument really are. When pulling the mouthpiece out you are not only making the "sounding length" of the saxophone longer, you are also adding to the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece which needs to be a close match to the volume of the "missing cone" to its apex. The distance the soundwave travels to the leading edge of the tonehole and back is what partly determines the pitch of the note, but so does the temperature of the air, the "end correction" at the tonehole, the mouthpiece input pitch, the diameter of the tonehole, and yes---the height of the key. When the mouthpiece is set the correct distance on the cork it "tunes" the fundamental of the note that is being played. However, if moving it to that location causes the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece to no longer be a close match to the volume of missing cone, the harmonics will no longer be "in tune". This is most noticeable at the 2nd partial or the octave of the note. This is why I believe tuning must include matching the pitch of "overtones" to the pitch of the regular fingering of that note.

The bottom line is that I think it is a really bad idea to try to "tune" a saxophone by raising or lowering all of the key heights.

 

[Krash2]

Many thanks to everyone who responded!