[ConnorTsax]

I have heard both of these models named as "Chu Berry" horns, but always either one or the other. Which one is really considered the Chu Berry horn. Doesn't make a huge difference, but my brain reallly wants to know.

Also, owners of these horns, what's it like? What do you love about your horn?

 

[Grumps]

The II's are the "Chu Berry" horns. After around serial number 150,000. The II's have the nail file G# (which I don't like, tell you the truth). Another difference is that not all I's have the rolled tone holes.

 

[Fader]

The New Wonder II is the most accepted of those answers, but it's probable that he played a transitional model / early 10m...

Conn never actually made a model called the "Chu Berry".

I owned both for a while. The ergonomics were pretty bad on the New Wonder, and only marginally better on the NWII. I really liked the tone from behind the horn. It roared - and they both were really solid, well constructed instruments.

 

[turf3]

There's a famous photo of Chu Berry holding a Conn tenor that's really in between the typical 10M and the typical NWII. You can clearly see the curved high E key and the bell keys on opposite sides of the bell.

What instruments he might have played before and after that photo was taken, is anyone's guess.

The main mechanical differences I'm aware of between 10M and NWII are the modified LH table (six of one, half dozen of the other to me), the bell keys all on the same side (no real effect to the player), and the bis Bb being relocated (10M is better IMO). Also the octave mechanism is changed - the 10M is much more complex but also easier to regulate and have it stay.

There seems to have been a lot of variation in build specs and engraving right around the time of the model transition. Keep in mind that at the time no one knew or cared about these fine distinctions, and Conn just called it "the Conn tenor saxophone". You went to the music store and they had some tenors - a King, a Martin, a Buescher, a Conn, a Selmer. You didn't compare photographs or ask for input from strangers on the internet. Whatever the music store clerk told you, plus the minimal information in the manfacturers' catalogs, plus the input from your friends/colleagues/teacher, was what you knew about the instrument you purchased.

 

[JayeLID]

They are essentially the same models, really. The body tube and neck specs are identical (except as Grumps pointed out the early I's didn't have rolled holes). So for the II they ran the exact same body off the assembly line. Some minor keywork changes is about all. Matt Stohrer correctly points out that the key casting on the II is more precise than the I's...which is valid although it is arguable that this means anything to the performance of the horn, as the touches are mostly in the exact same place and sprung/mounted similarly.

So if it is a question of somebody in the position of wanting a NW but on a tight budget, and they are thinking "gosh should I spring for a Chu ?...it'd be a financial stretch"...I'd say...just get the I. Essentially the same horn.

Anyone describing or representing a I as a Chu, however, is just misrepresenting (whether intentional or not).

 

[Grumps]

So if it is a question of somebody in the position of wanting a NW but on a tight budget, and they are thinking "gosh should I spring for a Chu ?...it'd be a financial stretch"...I'd say...just get the I. Essentially the same horn.

Great advice. I have a soft spot for NWI's as well; the underappreciated Conns. Both my bari and one of my sopranos are NWI's, and I've always enjoyed honking on a NWI tenor when I get the chance

 

[turf3]

I think the NW1 has the little round left hand palm key that was elongated for the NW2. In this day and age when palm key risers are practically expected, that shouldn't hold anyone back.

 

[jazzznbluezzz]

I consider my '24 NW I (144xxx) as a transitional model to the II. It has the more modern palm keys already but no nail file G#.
Unfortunately I have never played a Chu so I can not compare. However I am inclined to think they sound pretty much the same.
It sounds quite different from my 10M though. Key risers can really help if you need it.

 

[Fader]

I consider my '24 NW I (144xxx) as a transitional model to the II. It has the more modern palm keys already but no nail file G#.
Unfortunately I have never played a Chu so I can not compare. However I am inclined to think they sound pretty much the same.
It sounds quite different from my 10M though. Key risers can really help if you need it.

They sound the same to me, but I had specific problems with the octave key. For whatever reason the teardrop octave keys on some vintage models give me a problem. Primarily with pinching, but they also just feel uncomfortable to me.

 

[turf3]

They sound the same to me, but I had specific problems with the octave key. For whatever reason the teardrop octave keys on some vintage models give me a problem. Primarily with pinching, but they also just feel uncomfortable to me.

You probably need to bend the key a bit to control the pinch point between the thumb rest and the key touch; also adjusting the height of the touch. I generally have to fiddle with this stuff when I get a new horn (not literally "new"; the latest "new horn" I 've acquired is 90+ years old...)

The little tiny left thumb rest on older Conn tenors and baritones will punch a hole in your thumb after a while. I cover it with something to increase its size, whether a piece of carved cork or (as my Mexi-Conn) a round piece of metal. I don't know why Martin are about the only people to make a true ergonomic left thumb rest on the Committee 1 and 2 (and then they quit).

 

[Hornlip]

FWIW:

Cropped so you can't for sure tell what it is. Clearly the photo editor did not have the obsessions of early 21st Century sax-hounds in mind.

 

[zapatista]

Looks like a split bell transitional (NW II to 10M) with art deco engraving.
https://jazzlives.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/untitled-8_0141.jpg

I'm sure the photo has been examined before but it is quite possible that it is actually a NW II with Art Deco engraving? I have two Conn Silver Plate/Gold Wash Altos that have identical keywork-147XXX & 244XXX serial numbers. However the 244XXX Alto has Art Deco engraving while the 147k Alto has typical floral NW II engraving.

Another photo:
https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/photo-of-chu-berry-posed-portrait-of-leon-chu-berry-with-news-photo/85231202

 

[turf3]

In the second picture of Chu, the studio portrait, you can clearly see the curved side key which is characteristic of the 10M as well as the right hand little finger keys which are New Wonder style. So, some kind of transitional build. In the first one, note that Bud Freeman is playing a very similar model of tenor except that it looks like the "lady face" pentagon has caught the light.

As I said, there were a lot of changes in details of mechanism and engraving at the time of introducing the 10M. I would surmise a lot of those combinations were created to use up inventory parts.

 

[zapatista]

Absolutely and the alto in the middle has mostly 6M features with the 5 roller left pinky cluster and same side bell keys. Pretty interesting pic...

 

[turf3]

Absolutely and the alto in the middle has mostly 6M features with the 5 roller left pinky cluster and same side bell keys. Pretty interesting pic...

That's a 6M with the "New York" neck - octave key on top and no microtuner. There are other pictures of Johnny Hodges playing that type of Conn as well as the garden variety 6M. He didn't ONLY play Buescher.

 

[JayeLID]

Great advice. I have a soft spot for NWI's as well; the underappreciated Conns. Both my bari and one of my sopranos are NWI's, and I've always enjoyed honking on a NWI tenor when I get the chance

Yup. There are times when I have gotten I's in here and initially was a bit unenthusiastic about refurbing 'em. But once I got 'em up to snuff, my reaction was always the same: these are NICE horns.

I know a few pros who sport and have sported a I as their axe for decades, too...they also having S20's or Selmers or the like, but still using their NWI's regularly.

 

[JayeLID]

I consider my '24 NW I (144xxx) as a transitional model to the II. It has the more modern palm keys already but no nail file G#.

That's interesting, I don't think I have ever had one of those cross my bench, if memory serves....

 

[turf3]

Yup. There are times when I have gotten I's in here and initially was a bit unenthusiastic about refurbing 'em. But once I got 'em up to snuff, my reaction was always the same: these are NICE horns.

I know a few pros who sport and have sported a I as their axe for decades, too...they also having S20's or Selmers or the like, but still using their NWI's regularly.

What was it that made you initially "unenthusiastic"? Aren't the I and II basically the same thing with some minor keywork differences?

 

[cymru97]

Yup. There are times when I have gotten I's in here and initially was a bit unenthusiastic about refurbing 'em. But once I got 'em up to snuff, my reaction was always the same: these are NICE horns.

I know a few pros who sport and have sported a I as their axe for decades, too...they also having S20's or Selmers or the like, but still using their NWI's regularly.

I had an NWI completely overhauled this past year and it is an incredible horn! Not to mention they are a bargain relative to the NWII and transitional horns. The best part for me is the key work suits my hands, my only complaint is the location of the bis, but that is just getting used to it. I've got a basketcase NWII I'd love to get overhauled someday, but I have too many other things to spend money on and I have no complaints with the NWI.

 

[zapatista]

I have an NWI C-Melody and it plays (screams too) really well with nice, light action.