[GaSax]

Found this New Wonder 1 Baritone Saxophone on eBay that appears to have the octave PIP etc relocated from the neck to top part of the body.
Curious as to what benefit this would have as to playability, response etc?
And no I'm not interested in buying it. Especially not at that price!
If I get one, I don't want any custom modifications done to it. ?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/C-G-Conn-Vintage-Baritone-Saxophone-w-ProTec-Case-S-N-118658/284012124162

 

[turf3]

It'll affect the notes above G#. No idea how big the effect. Modern baritones all put the vent there, but they have much shorter necks. My guess is that the NW1 location is acoustically the best, but it sucks mechanically, and that's why Conn moved it closer to the MP. I would suspect they at least experimented with it on the body and didn't choose that location, so that might mean something.

The only way to assess would be to play it.

If it's only keyed to Eb that would be a big strike against it.

 

[Grumps]

I have an even earlier one. Someone wrecked it. Note the disclaimer: "This instrument has NOT been tested..." Their emphasis, not mine.

 

[GaSax]

All the reports of the New Wonder 1 Baritone Saxophones having intonation problems and only keyed to Eb makes me hesitant on getting one. But all the You Tube videos I've found of someone playing one, they have a nice rich pleasant tone quality compared to others. I'll just keep looking for now.

Not too satisfied with the Allora I got.

 

[Grumps]

Their only intonational quirks... the ones in original condition, that is... is that they favor a large chambered mouthpiece and/or one with a longer shank (or ideally both, like I have) to not play overall sharp. Other than that, the middle range can play a bit sharper from middle D to F#, but that's easily controlled with a looser lip. And if you play with a looser lip overall, the aforesaid quirks are even more manageable. But the octave design is problematic and can be knocked out of kilter if you're careless with it.

I don't use mine for section work, but it's one heck of a bar horn. The original Conn bari bark.

 

[GaSax]

That's good to know! I planned on getting an original Conn mouthpiece anyways. Got Conn mouthpieces for the 10M and the New Wonder 1 Alto and really like how they play. Thanks for clearing that up for me!

 

[turf3]

I haven't played one of those in a long time and never really studied one in detail, but I wouldn't be surprised to find the bores and tone hole positions of New Wonder 1, 2, and 12M baris were all identical except for the obvious differences (adding high E and F, moving the octave vent, moving one bell key around to the outside, and eventually losing the fork Eb tone hole).

 

[Grumps]

I keep the fork/alt/trill Eb functioning on mine, as well as on my Conn curved soprano. Have it reverse sprung on my alto Buescher True Tone, but functional on my TT curved soprano.

 

[bruce bailey]

Are we sufe this is not the original octave key set up with a later neck? Somehow the plating looks a bit different on the neck and the upper pip arm looks originalish.

 

[GaSax]

Are we sufe this is not the original octave key set up with a later neck? Somehow the plating looks a bit different on the neck and the upper pip arm looks originalish.

Where the octave PIP is normally located on the neck is a spot of bare brass. Looks like someone brazed it closed to me.

I have yet to find another Conn like this on the internet. I did find stuff about changing necks, moving the octave PIP higher on the neck like modern Baritone Saxophones. But nothing so far, like the one on eBay.

 

[Grumps]

Are we sure this is not the original octave key set up with a later neck?

Yeah, there's a patch where the octave would have been on the neck, with the new octave vent near the top of the loop. Completely mangled.

 

[turf3]

It also looks like the replacement vent is actuallly located on the tenon receiver - no idea how that's done on the instrument in question.

Frankly I think the modification approach on these instruments should be to mount a key on the neck, pointing downward instead of upward as in the later Conns, using the original vent. If you cut off the pad cup on the arm and replace it with a feature to lift the new key, you have a minimum of keywork changes, original vent is used, neck angle can be adjusted without losing octave key function.

Someday I'd like to do a physical and playing comparison of one of these early NW Conn baritones vs. my "golden age" 12M. I suspect the octave vent location low on the neck as the NW1 is the best location acoustically and that the move up the neck was purely because of the mechanical considerations. But I have no actual evidence for that suspicion.

 

[JayeLID]

All the reports of the New Wonder 1 Baritone Saxophones having intonation problems and only keyed to Eb makes me hesitant on getting one. But all the You Tube videos I've found of someone playing one, they have a nice rich pleasant tone quality compared to others. I'll just keep looking for now.

Not too satisfied with the Allora I got.

Honestly....MOST pre-1980's Baritones are gonna sound wide and rich compared to modern models. Conn, King, Martin, Buescher, Holton, the European makes such as Beaugnier or JK or Kohlert or B&S/Weltklang, etc...

Selelr has a lotta friggin' balls posting a start-price of $1400+ ....when it is only keyed to Eb, has a post-factory mod, and has not even been serviced nor playtested.

What they have there is a $400-500 project horn.

I can whip up a 12M , overhauled (actually come to think of it, almost any vintage low Bb) for around $1500...they are a music shop and they cannot even have their tech put 3 hours into some servicing work ?

 

[GaSax]

The new Bari I have, has the octave PIP just below the tenon where the neck slides in it, in a similar style as the NW 1.

 

[turf3]

The new Bari I have, has the octave PIP just below the tenon where the neck slides in it, in a similar style as the NW 1.

Yes, that's the standard location for modern baritones with their shorter necks. Older horns with their longer necks have the vent on the neck. The Conn 12M and NW2 have one of the longest necks and consequently the greatest distance up the neck to the vent. Kings and Bueschers have wee little keys and the vent's around the bend, but still on the neck.

The fact that baritones almost all place the vent right at one side or the other of the joint suggests to me that IN the joint might be the acoustically best location for many of these horns, but you can't do that, because the joint's there.

 

[Grumps]

...they are a music shop and they cannot even have their tech put 3 hours into some servicing work ?

Which makes me suspect that they know full well this horn was mangled. Hence their disclaimer... if a "merchant" (U.C.C. Code) can indeed expect it to be legally binding in this instance. A tech nearly wrecked mine some years ago before I had someone else restore it. Thankfully, the prior tech didn't seal the octave pip on the neck like the one we have here. But this horn baffles the inexperienced/hack tech, and I'm not surprised whenever I see one modified.

 

[Always_Learning]

Honestly....MOST pre-1980's Baritones are gonna sound wide and rich compared to modern models. Conn, King, Martin, Buescher, Holton, the European makes such as Beaugnier or JK or Kohlert or B&S/Weltklang, etc...

Selelr has a lotta friggin' balls posting a start-price of $1400+ ....when it is only keyed to Eb, has a post-factory mod, and has not even been serviced nor playtested.

What they have there is a $400-500 project horn.

I can whip up a 12M , overhauled (actually come to think of it, almost any vintage low Bb) for around $1500...they are a music shop and they cannot even have their tech put 3 hours into some servicing work ?

I don't personally understand this. The horn appears to have sold for asking. I'm trying to figure out what sold this model over the 12M's, Martins, Bueschers that can be found all day for the asking. Also what are the odds that this is going to need a repad at minimum? At a certain point wouldn't you get into Low A money?

 

[turf3]

I don't personally understand this. The horn appears to have sold for asking. I'm trying to figure out what sold this model over the 12M's, Martins, Bueschers that can be found all day for the asking. Also what are the odds that this is going to need a repad at minimum? At a certain point wouldn't you get into Low A money?

At $1400 selling price and a repad (unless the buyer is qualified to do it himself) you're pushing into cheap low A territory. However, the low A baritone is not always preferable; lots of players prefer a good low Bb to a cheap low A. Thus the prices good 12Ms sell for.

Frankly, for what I use a baritone sax for, a horn needing a repad, keyed only to high Eb, no front F, and a dubious modification that may need to be reversed, goes for $250-400. I don't need the low A but I darn sure use the upper register, constantly. And it needs to work properly, and I'm quite doubtful about relocating the octave vent willy-nilly. Now Grumps has an old Conn keyed to Eb, and he uses it successfully, but I bet he paid a lot less for it than he would have for a fully keyed horn. And his (from his reporting) has an original functioning octave mech.

 

[pitsen3]

Looks to me that the upper octave key has been cut off and the pip plugged with a bit of wax.
Referance https://worldwidesax.com/archived/conn-1926-new-wonder-ii-chu-berry-eb-baritone-silver-171xxx/

 

[GaSax]

Honestly....MOST pre-1980's Baritones are gonna sound wide and rich compared to modern models. Conn, King, Martin, Buescher, Holton, the European makes such as Beaugnier or JK or Kohlert or B&S/Weltklang, etc...

Selelr has a lotta friggin' balls posting a start-price of $1400+ ....when it is only keyed to Eb, has a post-factory mod, and has not even been serviced nor playtested.

What they have there is a $400-500 project horn.

I can whip up a 12M , overhauled (actually come to think of it, almost any vintage low Bb) for around $1500...they are a music shop and they cannot even have their tech put 3 hours into some servicing work ?

I don't personally understand this. The horn appears to have sold for asking. I'm trying to figure out what sold this model over the 12M's, Martins, Bueschers that can be found all day for the asking. Also what are the odds that this is going to need a repad at minimum? At a certain point wouldn't you get into Low A money?

It didn't sell. It's been relisted and they took another $50 off the price.