[Jmceachern36]

I’m thinking about checking out a conn 12m bari locally. That’s if the guy will return my emails. Are there good/bad years? It’s supposed to be from the 50’s. I’m assuming that’s good. Price? Not sure about rules on the forum about posting prices. Thanks.

 

[turf3]

Well, the "very best" years - at least as far as collector value - would in my opinion be from about 1938ish when they put the front F on, to about 1948 when the rolled tone holes were discontinued. However, it's not clear that there's any real advantage to the RTH. The next step in downgrading would probably be when they went to the nickel plated keys; it seems that the general level of fastidiousness in assembly (which to be honest wasn't all that great in Conn's so called glory years) degraded around that time.

But let's face it, you're talking about an instrument between 60 and 69 years of age. And a big one so it's been subject to bumps, dings, and all the ills brass is heir to. The instrument's 60+ year history will be far, far more important to how it plays now, than the exact date of manufacture.

For me, if I had to replace my 1946 12M, I would insist on it having the front F and that it have been made before they took off the fork Eb (I guess that was in the late 60s?) Most likely every instrument made between those two mileposts will play similarly enough as to make no difference for the actual playing of the thing, just differences in collector value.

 

[JayeLID]

I am gonna give a slightly different answer:

Are there bad 12M's ?

Arguably, yes, just as there are lemon cars.

Are there bad 'years' to be avoided ?

No, there are not.

Why ?

Because the fact is, the design of 12M's (and ALL Artist series models, really) remained the same from the 30's into the 70's (or in the case of the 12M, into the 90's actually as UMI kept making these models after they took over Conn). I casn take a 1969 neck and slap in on a 1939 12M and it will perform just as well. I have taken keys off of a late one to use on an early one and they fit like a glove, only the minor-est of adjusting needed. It's the same design. (I might even argue that, in the case of ALL Artist horns, the same design was kept for a little too long).

But, essentially you get the same horn. I will (respectfully) not abide by the notion that nickelplate keys = the point of the downturn. I have played dog Artist horns from the early 40's, and killer Artist horns from the late 60's.

The pre-1962 ones are more sought after because the have the Lady engraving, and the brass lacq keys are more sought after because folks prefer brass lacq keys. The older they get, generally, the higher their market values. But the design and mechanics never really changed substantially. (I do wonder when the Fork Eb disappeared, actually ?)

One CAN claim that the N-serialed ones, Mexico-made, had some precision issues...and this would be accurate. It's the same design and a '57, etc...but the precision of fabrication sometimes tended to be inconsistent. But those issues are also easily correctable by a tech, and once corrected, they hold. So I have in fact sold Mexico 12M's to folks who could not afford a USA one, their market values literally being half of most USA ones....and they were very happy with their horns.

 

[Jmceachern36]

Is there a price range/guide
? This guy is looking for 1500 Having said that he’s not getting back to me so maybe it’s gone.

 

[turf3]

Sounds reasonable for a playing-condition 12M from the 50s. (I guess you don't really know how close to playing condition it is, till you see it, which may in fact not happen.)

 

[Jmceachern36]

He put the sale on hold for now. He might sell his Buescher 400 instead. Have wait for now. Thank for all the info.

 

[Jmceachern36]

.....and he sent pics of the conn. It looks quite nice.

 

[Bari Sax Guy]

I am gonna give a slightly different answer:

Are there bad 12M's ?

Arguably, yes, just as there are lemon cars.

Are there bad 'years' to be avoided ?

No, there are not.

Why ?

Because the fact is, the design of 12M's (and ALL Artist series models, really) remained the same from the 30's into the 70's (or in the case of the 12M, into the 90's actually as UMI kept making these models after they took over Conn). I casn take a 1969 neck and slap in on a 1939 12M and it will perform just as well. I have taken keys off of a late one to use on an early one and they fit like a glove, only the minor-est of adjusting needed. It's the same design. (I might even argue that, in the case of ALL Artist horns, the same design was kept for a little too long).

But, essentially you get the same horn. I will (respectfully) not abide by the notion that nickelplate keys = the point of the downturn. I have played dog Artist horns from the early 40's, and killer Artist horns from the late 60's.

The pre-1962 ones are more sought after because the have the Lady engraving, and the brass lacq keys are more sought after because folks prefer brass lacq keys. The older they get, generally, the higher their market values. But the design and mechanics never really changed substantially. (I do wonder when the Fork Eb disappeared, actually ?)

One CAN claim that the N-serialed ones, Mexico-made, had some precision issues...and this would be accurate. It's the same design and a '57, etc...but the precision of fabrication sometimes tended to be inconsistent. But those issues are also easily correctable by a tech, and once corrected, they hold. So I have in fact sold Mexico 12M's to folks who could not afford a USA one, their market values literally being half of most USA ones....and they were very happy with their horns.

Great Info JayeLID (or George?) In any event thanks for your input.

 

[B Flat]

I had a 36 12m sans front F.
Fabulous horn in all respects except for the lack of front F.
I’ve played a few later ones from 50’s and 60’s but they were lacking in something.
Not sure what it was but they just weren’t on the same level as that 36 model was.
Still I would like to have a 12m again at some point, particularly an earlier one.

 

[Jmceachern36]

I play a King Zephyr now. Would the 12m be an upgrade at all? I dig my Zephyr. Big and bold. Im on the lookout for a second horn so I’ll have a backup if one goes down. I was looking at Taishan so I could have one with an A. Don’t really need the A though. A second Zephyr would be great. In silver maybe?

 

[Mike T]

Conn started adding the front F to their 12Ms in 1936; however, only SOME of them got the front F, which didn't become standard until the end of 1937 or start of 1938. My own 1936 12M is a marvellous instrument with that huge Conn bari tone and I was lucky to get it, but it didn't have a front F, so I bought the front F keywork from a friend in northern NSW who had a 1960s 12M for parts and got a local techy put it on for me. The late Joe Temperley had two 12Ms from the early to mid 1930s and he added front F to each of them. What's good enough for Joe is easily good enough for me.

My other 12M dates from 1964. Unlike the 1936 model, it has nickel-plated keywork and straight tone holes. However it has retained the right hand forked Eb. The forked Eb design is a marvel on the 12M, unlike the version on the earlier altos and tenors. I have never been able to understand why Conn preferred to get rid of the forked Eb altogether from the altos and tenors, instead of using the 12M forked Eb design.

As for tone, I believe the 1936 has a heavier louder sound than the 1964 — but YMMV.

If you're wondering whether a 12M is worth it, just ask yourself why Gerry Mulligan and Joe Temperley kept playing them. Of course, if you need that bottom A for playing bassoon parts…

 

[milandro]

What makes you think that you need a backup in the first place?

Does your horn require frequent and long trips to the repairman? Do you play professionally every day so that you cannot miss the horn for a few hours or days for the occasional repair?

Unless your answers tell you that you require to have an horn reay at all times, then you don’t need a back up. You probably will never use it or use it only because you have it.

If you just want to buy something else that is a different matter.

Why would a silver plate Zephyr be an addition to your lacquered Zephyr? Soundwise they will simply differ because they are two individually different horns and not because one has few microns of silverplate.

If you would need the occasional low A then I would buy a secondhand horn (and not a New Taishan) with it.

 

[Jmceachern36]

I am a professional musician. Not a pro bari player but I do play often. Very often. I play bass and guitar for a living. Mostly bass. I have found that it is worth having a backup. Things are discovered broken at the last minute sometimes. But also, I can afford a backup. Not a $5000 back but I can afford something.... A silver one because it looks nice plain and simple. The same reason I use maple fretboards.... Do I need a low A? No. I don’t need anything actually. I want a second horn that’s fun to play and sounds good......This response is in no way meant to sound snarky or defensive. I’m just telling people why I might buy a second horn.

 

[turf3]

Having played both the Conn and the King, I would rate them as similar in quality. The Kings usually don't have the front F (which, as noted, can be added, but not every tech is willing or able). I think the Conn has a more direct and focused sound where the King is almost "creamy" to me; very smooth. The King - if I recall correctly - has the same design fork Eb as the Conn. I'd be happy with either. Or both.

I think it's a good idea to have a backup even if you COULD come up with a workaround to an unexpected repair.

 

[milandro]

If I were to buy second horn I wouldn’t buy a similar horn.

It has been my consistent experience in years of buying and selling that you can find baritones, low Bb or A, at less than the price of a new Taishan.

Good luck!

 

[Jmceachern36]

If I were to buy second horn I wouldn't buy a similar horn.

It has been my consistent experience in years of buying and selling that you can find baritones, low Bb or A, at less than the price of a new Taishan.

Good luck!

I've got to find a low A horn to try. See if I like it. Good to know they can be found under $1500. I haven't seen that yet.

 

[ZootTheSim]

He might sell his Buescher 400 instead.

Why not buy the 400?

 

[Jmceachern36]

Why not buy the 400?

Don't know much about them. Are they decent? He doesn't have it up for sale yet I think he's deciding which to sell. There are, however 2 Bueschers for sale in my area. A 400 and a True Tone from 1926. Nice silver one actually. Know anything about them? Price is right.

 

[ZootTheSim]

There are lots of threads about them:

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...-why-no-one-plays&highlight=buescher+400+bari

 

[Jmceachern36]

Thanks. Going to check the 400 out.