[Siggie]

I've been posting questions for years on SOTW. Questions about how to make my 12M play better. I've had many techs go through the horn. One Berkeley tech called my 12M a "killer horn" after he played it.

I'm not a professional, but I can testify: I sure do love the tone of that horn. But after years of fighting the intonation, I just placed an order for a YBS-62.

To trial.

I want to find out if the YBS-62 will play better. It will arrive in a month. My expectation is that the 62, with its modern mechanism will allow me to sound notes with more crispness, especially when crossing the octave break. But, I don't know. I have no idea what the tonal difference will be.

Has anyone given up their 12M for a 62? Were you glad you did it?

 

[B Flat]

I’ve gone the other way, from a YBS62 to a 1936 12M.
For me it was a great move.

 

[KeithL]

This will very much be dependent upon how you define "better". Just going from any Low Bb bari to a Low A horn is a big change. To the player the Low Bb horn almost always has a more open stronger sound so the Low A horn will take some time to get used to. I don't think you're likely to find the sound of the Yamaha more pleasing but the intonation will more than likely be less challenging.

Which horn is arguably "better" depends a lot upon what you want to do with it. If you're trying to play in community concert bands, big bands, sax quartets, wind ensembles, funk bands, or any situation where the Low A or being consistently able to match intonation is a must then the Yamaha is simply going to be the better tool. However, if you're just playing for your own enjoyment, at home with play alongs, in a jazz combo, as a double in a rock or R&B band, etc., you may not find the Yamaha offers enough advantage to justify the cost.

 

[Siggie]

This will very much be dependent upon how you define "better". Just going from any Low Bb bari to a Low A horn is a big change. To the player the Low Bb horn almost always has a more open stronger sound so the Low A horn will take some time to get used to. I don't think you're likely to find the sound of the Yamaha more pleasing but the intonation will more than likely be less challenging.

Which horn is arguably "better" depends a lot upon what you want to do with it. If you're trying to play in community concert bands, big bands, sax quartets, wind ensembles, funk bands, or any situation where the Low A or being consistently able to match intonation is a must then the Yamaha is simply going to be the better tool. However, if you're just playing for your own enjoyment, at home with play alongs, in a jazz combo, as a double in a rock or R&B band, etc., you may not find the Yamaha offers enough advantage to justify the cost.

Thanks for that. I hope I didn't frame the question as which is better.

When the pandemic is over, I will be looking to get a seat on a big band, but for now, it's playing for enjoyment. I'll tell you what led me to the 62: I put Bach Six Suites for Cello (transcribed for saxophone) on the stand. The 12M is simply awesome in tone, but playing the (string crossing) intervals in the first suite cleanly exposed what I've been fighting for years -- a lack of ability to cleanly cross octaves and sound notes without burbles and excursions.

The 62 is a lot of money though. I'm anxious to get the horn, quarantine it, and play it to see if it plays more crisply and accurately. From soprano to tenor, I have new Yamaha horns, but the 12M, purely from a "singing voice" perspective is by far my most enjoyable horn to play. If only it didn't mumble the words....

 

[Siggie]

That means something to me that you said that. I asked the question because there is so much experience and expertise in this forum. I went through a long period of equipment chasing and optimization. I had a double chamber mouthpiece made form my 12M and put a lot of money into making it play well. I'll guess that it was great move for you because of the sound of the 12M.....

 

[KeithL]

Thanks for that. I hope I didn't frame the question as which is better.

When the pandemic is over, I will be looking to get a seat on a big band, but for now, it's playing for enjoyment. I'll tell you what led me to the 62: I put Bach Six Suites for Cello (transcribed for saxophone) on the stand. The 12M is simply awesome in tone, but playing the (string crossing) intervals in the first suite cleanly exposed what I've been fighting for years -- a lack of ability to cleanly cross octaves and sound notes without burbles and excursions.

The 62 is a lot of money though. I'm anxious to get the horn, quarantine it, and play it to see if it plays more crisply and accurately. From soprano to tenor, I have new Yamaha horns, but the 12M, purely from a "singing voice" perspective is by far my most enjoyable horn to play. If only it didn't mumble the words....

Well for most the ergonomics of the Yamaha keywork will be easier to manage as well. One of the primary reasons I don't own a vintage American bari (well, I did own a The Martin for a few years but the intonation was more challenging than I was willing to deal with in a big band setting at the time ) is the keywork just doesn't work for me. Yamaha goes to a fair amount of trouble to make sure all their horns feel very similar. The 62 bari will probably feel a lot like a heavier version of your tenor.

 

[B Flat]

For me it was a great move for tone as well as ergonomics.
I have pretty huge hands and found the Yamaha too compact for me.

 

[Siggie]

If the 62 feels similar to my YTS-875EX I'm going to like it. I'll probably make it my main instrument. I'm so used to the 12M, really the only difficulty (for me) is the spatula descending low B to Bb (which is common on a lot of horns), and that 12M octave mechanism. I've had 4 different techs go through that octave mechanism. Otherwise the 12M plays exceptionally well.

 

[nigeld]

My first bari was a Buescher Big-B. Sounded great, but I struggled with the ergonomics, especially playing fast in a big band. I decided to try a modern bari, so I went to a shop to try a couple. They sounded OK, but the Big-B blew them away. So I struggled on for a month or two more and then decided that I would sacrifice tone for ergonomics. I ended up getting a YBS-32 and It was great for big band - so much easier to play. Honking out the low notes on a modern bari is so easy.
I deliberately put my Buescher away in its case and didn’t compare it with the Yamaha because I didn’t want to be disappointed with my new toy.

Then 6 months later I got the Buescher out and compared it with the Yamaha. There was surprisingly little difference in tone, I didn’t feel that I had given up anything much at all in tone, and I had gained a lot in ergonomics. So my conclusion was that while I was used to playing the Big-B, modern baris sounded thin, but once I was used to playing the Yamaha I could get just as much out of it. I have no regrets at all. I’m having a similar experience right now with tenor - I’ve just got a YTS-62. It sounded thin at first, but the tone is getting fatter.

 

[Siggie]

Thanks, nigeld. Your experience kind of matches up to what I expected will happen. It also illustrates the general saying that one's sound is more a product of the player and not the equipment (Maceo Parker could put down his Mk VI, pick up a Bundy alto and he'd still sound like Maceo Parker). The one concern I have is that I sound great on my 12M. That can't be because of me, it's got to be the 12M! 😁 If the mechanicals of the 62 are better and the tonal quality is retained, this will be a great move. I'm really keen to find out, and your experience validates (and may preview) what will happen.

 

[Siggie]

I play tennis and use a medium racquet grip. My hands aren't particularly big. The 12M keyboard is very comfortable. I hope this doesn't mean the 62 will be too small.

 

[B Flat]

You may be fine with the Yamaha layout and spacing.
I have seriously large hands, so for me it just didn’t work.

 

[Ausax]

Yamaha goes to a fair amount of trouble to make sure all their horns feel very similar. The 62 bari will probably feel a lot like a heavier version of your tenor.

My early 62 does feel somewhat tenorish in the left hand stack but the sound & intonation is hard to beat.
The 3 octave pip system on the Yamaha bari helps to make the 2nd octave & up clear & secure.
I must admit though, I sometimes miss the all out beef of my old Buescher 400 low Bb for that "old school" sound.
So I'm secretly searching for a pre-war Conn 12M myself, just for fun!.

 

[KeithL]

My early 62 does feel somewhat tenorish in the left hand stack but the sound & intonation is hard to beat.
The 3 octave pip system on the Yamaha bari helps to make the 2nd octave & up clear & secure.
I must admit though, I sometimes miss the all out beef of my old Buescher 400 low Bb for that "old school" sound.
So I'm secretly searching for a pre-war Conn 12M myself, just for fun!.

I think this (owning both Low A and Low Bb horns) is true in some way for many of us who have the means and really enjoy playing bari. A lot of gigs and playing environments either require or are much more easily managed with Low A horns however when given the opportunity to just play for our own enjoyment we often prefer a Low Bb bari. During this time of isolation created by covid I've been playing my Low Bb horn far more than my Low A and far more than I have in the past several years when I was spending a lot of time prepping for gigs that I needed the Low A for.

 

[Siggie]

You may be fine with the Yamaha layout and spacing.
I have seriously large hands, so for me it just didn't work.

I think you knew what you were talking about when you wrote that comment. Here's the thing:

I didn't.

I've been playing my 12M and I had no idea what a modern baritone felt like.

After quarantining the new YBS-62 for 3 weeks I played it. I was shocked. The keyboard was layed out -- I couldn't tell the difference between my alto and this baritone! Maybe that's a good thing. But what really surprised me is that the left hand spatula keys were so close to the bell. Just like Maceo, I don't always have a compact fingering motion.

My pinky sometimes hit the bell!

I went back and really looked at my 12M. The bell to spatula table clearance is miles greater on the 12M.

The 62 will take some getting used to. It's also way heavier than my 12M.

But the sound is great, and the action is modern and clean, clean, clean.

I bought it.