[reafbop]

Hi , I decided to clean my 10m as it was terribly dirty. I managed to clean it up (nice and good ) and put most of it back in place. Until I noticed that the (upper stack bis and A keys are moving .. I don't know the technical name , but those keys are all attached on the same 'rod'. (the 1st 4 pearly keys from the top of the horn) Now there is is a couple of mm movent which will obviously not help when the pads are seated again. Can anyone help with getting rid of the movement on the keys, sio that I can put everything back in it's earlier position ?

Thanks

 

[Hassles]

your query is unclear. IF you removed the keys and replaced them have you positioned the springs correctly into their spring cradles?

 

[reafbop]

your query is unclear. IF you removed the keys and replaced them have you positioned the springs correctly into their spring cradles?

Yes , I am struggling to define exactly what I mean as I do not know the technical names. Yes, there are 3 springs and they have all been seated... Would a pic help?

 

[milandro]

or a video? if you are trying to show a movement

 

[reafbop]

or a video? if you are trying to show a movement

Ok , give me a bit to get it done.

 

[whaler]

I think he means there‘s space between the the key hinges on the rods.
‘you need a repair guy to repair that with a tool that gets rid of that play in the keys. This isn’t something I’d recommend for a DYI project.

 

[reafbop]

I think he means there's space between the the key hinges on the rods.
'you need a repair guy to repair that with a tool that gets rid of that play in the keys. This isn't something I'd recommend for a DYI project.

Yes , that is right .. What is the tool that a repair guy uses to fix that gap..?

 

[reafbop]

I think he means there's space between the the key hinges on the rods.
'you need a repair guy to repair that with a tool that gets rid of that play in the keys. This isn't something I'd recommend for a DYI project.

I think I found that ' Special tool; Wink , wink... Thanks all for your Elp!

 

[GaSax]

If it wasn't there before you may have bent something taking in or out.

I took a couple of saxes completely apart to clean them. No matter how careful I was I found something bent when I started to put them back together.

I have a repair guide I bought in the 90s and even found some how to YouTube videos on bent rods, keys and posts etc. I still wasn't brave enough to attempt repairs like that so I took it to a repair shop. These vintage Conns aren't made anymore and I didn't want to do any irreparable harm. Probably paid more for the repair then what I could have spent on the tools to do the job myself. When the tech straightened every thing out he had to go through and re-level most of the pads I replaced. Money well spent IMO!



However I now have a cheap old Bundy II, in poor shape to practice on.

 

[Dr G]

I think I found that ' Special tool; Wink , wink... Thanks all for your Elp!

What was it?

Curious,

George

 

[reafbop]

If it wasn't there before you may have bent something taking in or out.

I took a couple of saxes completely apart to clean them. No matter how careful I was I found something bent when I started to put them back together.

I have a repair guide I bought in the 90s and even found some how to YouTube videos on bent rods, keys and posts etc. I still wasn't brave enough to attempt repairs like that so I took it to a repair shop. These vintage Conns aren't made anymore and I didn't want to do any irreparable harm. Probably paid more for the repair then what I could have spent on the tools to do the job myself. When the tech straightened every thing out he had to go through and re-level most of the pads I replaced. Money well spent IMO!

However I now have a cheap old Bundy II, in poor shape to practice on.

Nothing bent or out of shape . I took care not to damage anything . I found a few pads held in place with a blob of shelac and found a few post screws thar were not the usual kind found on a 10m. I will continue trying to set up my 10M nothing to be scared of. I have till Friday... Plenty of time.

 

[reafbop]

What was it?

Curious,

George

You know ! Wink, wink

 

[mmichel]

Yes , that is right .. What is the tool that a repair guy uses to fix that gap..?

The thing is that from your description alone, it's hard to tell exactly what the problem is. Here are a few possibilities, each of which would require different tools:

1. There could be a very small amount of space between the hinge tubes and the rod and/or small gaps at the ends of the hinge tubes, in which case a set of swedging tools could help. However, this should not lead to several mm's of movement.
2. There could be a small amount of extra space in the post hole, allowing the entire rod to move around, in which case a post-fitting tool might help. Again, this should not lead to several mm's of movement.
3. The original rod may have been replaced in the past by an undersized rod, in which case the problems described in (1) and (2) would be fairly severe and probably not addressable using swedging tools and/or post-fitting tools alone.

The amount of movement you report and the fact that you indicate that shellac may have been used in the past to ameliorate the problem suggests that you're probably in a situation close to (3), either because the rod is the wrong size or because the hinges/post have suffered from severe wear. If this is true, then the problem won't be easily addressed at home, unless you have a lathe, some brass and/or rod stock, and some soldering skills.

 

[datsaxman]

Probably the play was there before you took it apart and you just did not notice until reassembly.
Old saxes, some wear and tear, blablabla.
Now, for the record, was there any play at all prior to disassembly? Are you SURE??

Maybe the wrong screws/rods are undersize and there is play? Should be quite small. Not several mm.

OR ... Swedge the rods to take up the play if it is sue to old age and infirmity. Special tool: fandydan pliers.
Unless the post(s) is(are) no longer where they belong due to some bumping.
Then those would have to be tapped back into place.
Special tool there is the technician, not the hammer.

UNLESS the hinge rod or the screws or the post holes are worn. More special tools!

 

[turf3]

There is a whole range of mechanical deficiencies that can cause excessive slop in the worn mechanism of a well used sax. Each type of issue has its own corrective action and tools associated with that. And different workers will have different opinions about the right approach to mechanical issues - for that matter a given worker may choose to fix a problem one way one time and a different way the next, depending on a variety of factors.

So without a ton more information there's no way to answer what to do or what tools to do it with.

 

[saxoclese]

The technical term for that key movement is "slop" in the keys. (Just kidding.) What happens is that over time on well played vintage instruments, the ends of the brass hinge tubes and the faces of the post wear a bit so they are no longer "snug". The "remedy" is to "stretch" the hinge tubes and make them longer. This is done either with "swedging pliers" or a "collet tool". I prefer to use the Ferree's collet tool whenever possible since it produces fewer "cosmetic" marks on the key. Some techs like myself like to "over expand" the hinge tube slightly and then fit it exactly with a hinge tube "facing tool".

 

[dirty]

You know ! Wink, wink

ok, but I don't. For my sake, could you tell us what it is?

 

[reafbop]

Probably the play was there before you took it apart and you just did not notice until reassembly.
Old saxes, some wear and tear, blablabla.
Now, for the record, was there any play at all prior to disassembly? Are you SURE??

Maybe the wrong screws/rods are undersize and there is play? Should be quite small. Not several mm.

OR ... Swedge the rods to take up the play if it is sue to old age and infirmity. Special tool: fandydan pliers.
Unless the post(s) is(are) no longer where they belong due to some bumping.
Then those would have to be tapped back into place.
Special tool there is the technician, not the hammer.

UNLESS the hinge rod or the screws or the post holes are worn. More special tools!

Yes ! I did check for movement of the keys on the post before disassembly And am sure there was NO movement.. The 'B' and the 'Bis' Key have the most movement . a few mm's .

I have put the horn back together minus two grub screws which I will do tomorrow. The horn is playable, though it is playing intermittently in the harmonic range. - this problem was already there after I had it repaired three times by three different Sax technicians .. Also my fork key F is not as stiff as it has been (it was almost unmovable before) for the last 4 months before and after my visit to the three different tech's I spoke about.

If I can get the horn to speak more clearly in the harmonic range then the job will be done and in a higher playing state than it has ever been. .. I am guessing that the Keys were being kept in place by Dirt..

 

[turf3]

Sometimes, rather than lengthening the hinge tube by swaging, people will cut and install a small spacer. You may have had one of these that fell out and was lost. It would be so tiny you could easily overlook it.

 

[reafbop]

Sometimes, rather than lengthening the hinge tube by swaging, people will cut and install a small spacer. You may have had one of these that fell out and was lost. It would be so tiny you could easily overlook it.

Definitely haven't lost anything. I made sure that everything that came off was observed and placed in a secure place. After being down this road before and misplacing parts . I knew that it was best for me to be aware of everything I was dismantling for the first time. I took a lot of grease and debris off those keys and rods; I guess they were the glue stopping the initial movement.