Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello, this is my first time on this forum and a first buying my own saxophone for myself. I am in high school and looking into getting a 10m, been saving up for a while and watching the market. I'm having a hard time deciding if it's worth to shell out the extra coin for a 10m with rolled tone holes. Also i've played some old American saxophone and I'm comfy with the ergos. Is it worth it? I would love the advice!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
666 Posts
Welcome to SOTW,

a 10m is a nice choice if you're looking for a complex and spread tone with a dark core! You will definitely get different opinions here on 10m horns concerning ergos. I highly recommend to play the horn you consider before you buy it and see if it feels okay for you. There's quite some variation in ergos of 10ms and some have been modified. E.g. my 10m has an additional eyelet ring for the neckstrap giving me way better balance for the whole instrument. I couldn't play as accurate technically without that feature and I've played 10ms that felt horrible in my hands.
It's a quite common opinion here that the pre-war models sound a bit better than the later ones without rolled tone holes (after 1947/48) but there are some 10ms from the 50s that sound fantastic as well. It's all about trying the individual horn you're considering, there are too many variations within the whole 10m line. If you're not that experienced yet make sure to check the horn with an experienced player, also checking intonation.

Good luck
Jo
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
40,819 Posts
I absolutely agree with what jolind has written.

First of all try the horn. There is no point of dreaming about a horn that you only know from hearsay.

Try as many as you can, because you have to go past the first time and few minutes to find out whether it is only an infatuation. So don’t look for this on line, look for it where you can find one or more to play.

Straight toneholes can be as good as rolled ones and be cheaper. Personally I believe that rolled toneholes in old saxophones can be opening a can of worms if they are on a horn that has been services by many hands looking for quick solutions to closing problems.

An early ’50 Conn will have all the good things and cost less . Good Luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Butter1983

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
8,404 Posts
I’m not well versed in 10m’s although I did own a 46 RTH silver plated one for a while.
It was a nice horn but just not my thing.
I have had a few 12m’s however and I feel there is a definite difference between the early RTH versions and the later ones.
I’ve had three RTH 12m’s (still own one of them from 1931).
And 4 later (1960’s 70’s and 90’s) versions.
The later ones were also great baritones, but none had the feel or tone of the earlier ones for me.
Having said that, I’ve heard others playing later models who sound way better than I do on either earlier or later models.
In particular I find the earlier ones (although much the same keywork) a lot smoother in operation.
This may or may not translate into the 10m’s though.
In your particular case, I’d probably go with a later (less expensive model) to see whether it is actually what your after before shelling out on a RTH era horn.
If you hate the later ones, chances are the earlier ones aren’t going to do it for you either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
605 Posts
Why a 10M? It couldn't hurt to try some other models and confirm a 10M is the one you want. Try everything you can in your price range.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
·
40,819 Posts
well, yes, but one has to start somewhere, so, if @Butter1983 stats with 10M trials he will either confirm this is the horn he wants or reject the idea and THEN start looking for all the other brands , if the Budget allocation , in any case, has to be such to buy a decent 10M then it is very likely that dozens of brands and types will fall within this price range, it may take a very long time to explore all the possible variants
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2008
Joined
·
1,272 Posts
I won't opine on if it is worth it or not, I think they are but it isn't my money. I also thing the later horns sound a bit different, though they are also very consistent. I would add to what Milandro stated, it is absolutely correct that when looking for a RTH Conn make sure the tone holes are in good shape and have not been damaged, filed or otherwise messed up. They are hard to fix once there is damage and you'll really need someone who knows how to work on rolled tone holes to fix it. It isn't something you should leave to a guy who also fixes sousaphones, violins, zithers and kazoos.
 

·
Moderator
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
29,885 Posts
I am in high school and looking into getting a 10m, been saving up for a while and watching the market
Also i've played some old American saxophone and I'm comfy with the ergos.
It may be useful to tell us what it is about the 10m you like. The second part of your post says you have played old American saxophones, but not that you have played a 10m. There is no reason for saxophones to have similar ergos based on being old and American.

Having said that I find the 10m to be one of the most comfortable saxophones I've owned.

I've had two 10ms I bought the first one due to its sound and intonation, I bought the second one because I had regretted getting rid of the first.

There are many things to be careful about, but I think rolled tone holes per se may be the least (although they can be a problem if a tech in the past has been too "enthusiastic" with tone hole levelling).

I've never had the problem, but some people find them to be picky regarding mouthpieces.

They are old, and so some of them in circulation are well worn. This in itself is not a problem as long as they are well maintained. But if rods and keywork are worn, then this is something I'd advise getting looked at even if the horn is playing well, because the wear in the keywork could mean it will go out of regulation very quickly. When you buy, check key barrels (the rod tubes) etc for tightness. There's little that can't be fixed by a good tech, but a lot of wear can be expensive to either repair or expensive on account of frequent vists back for adjustments.

If you buy online sight unseen, then it's a big risk if buying from an individual as opposed to a reputable dealer. There are members here who specialise in such instruments, e.g. JayeLID.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
It may be useful to tell us what it is about the 10m you like. The seencond part of your post says you have played old American saxophones, but not that you have played a 10m. There is no reason for saxophones to have similar ergos based on being old and American.

Having said that I find the 10m to be one of the most comfortable saxophones I've owned.

I've had two 10ms I bought the first one due to its sound and intonation, I bought the second one because I had regretted getting rid of the first.

There are many things to be careful about, but I think rolled tone holes per se may be the least (although they can be a problem if a tech in the past has been too "enthusisitac" with tone hole levelling).

I've never had the problem, but some people find them to be picky regarding mouthpieces.

They are old, and so some of them in circulation are well worn. This in itself is not a problem as long as they are well maintained. But if rods and keywork are worn, then this is something I'd advise getting looked at even if the horn is playing well, because the wear in the keywork could mean it will go out of regulation very quickly. When you buy, check key barrels (the rod tubes) etc for tightness. There's little that can't be fixed by a good tech, but a lot of wear can be expensive to either repair or expensive on account of frequent vists back for adjustments.

If you buy online sight unseen, then it's a big risk if buying from an individual as opposed to a reputable dealer. There are members here who specialise in such instruments, e.g. JayeLID.
Thank you so much for responding to this post, all of the advice Iḿ gettings is very useful! The reason that I am so attracted to a 10m is the Conn sound. I adore the sound that really any old Conn has. I have looked into New Wonders and transitionals but from what I´ve been hearing, the 10m is where it's at.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
·
18,653 Posts
OK well, based on my experience I gotta chime in here.

there is NO difference...as in zero, zed, zilch....between how an RTH 10M performs and how a post '47 non RTH performs...if serviced and set up identically.
Some changes were made....for example the key finish and going to a double-socket neck, lacquer color, etc...but....and here is the skinny:

specifications of 10M's in all of the places it mattered (as far as tone, blowing response go) ...are exactly the same. Body tube, neck tube, tonehole placement, etc. Only thing that changed is the rolled holes, then later, the removal of the Lady engraving, then a bit later the change to an underslung octave key (which resulted in the body pip moving to a different location and a new octave mechanism).

(People might, and have, argued that the build precision changed...so while specifications and design did not (in any way that mattered), the pre-war ones were 'made better'.
It's an interesting theory....but not one that I have noticed. I have done over 100 refurbs of this model, from 30's ones to 70's ones....I have come away with no impression that say, '48-59 ones.... were built more poorly than pre-war ones).

Soooo...IF....your reasoning leans towards buying RTH because 'they sound better'....that is, in my experience.... b-u-n-k.

Does this mean I am saying folks who claim this are liars ? No, hardly.

I believe what it indicates is: there was variability from horn to horn in vintage horns, more so than modern (generally speaking). So...yup...pick up one 10M...play it, pick up another one side by side, play it....and in fact a discerning player may find a difference. But the difference comes from variables other than the RTH and Lady.

The differences come from the fact that they are two different 10M's, and add to that the HIGH likelihood that they have also been set up differently and may NOT be in exactly the same play condition as far as leaks, etc. So people try two or four, not set up the same, not in same playing shape, very likely NOT at the same time and next to each other or in sequence....and they conclude that the tonehole surface is the variable which results in the differentiation of performance and sound.
And agin, those very FEW players who actually DID try them side by side, set up exactly the same and in exact same tack, are simply experiencing the 'natural variability' between one individual horn and another.

10M's are classic models...but having refurbished around 100, all eras....their prices today (particularly RTH ones) are outrageous, period.

To the degree that I state: an RTH Lady 10M in good, serviced, playable shape... is NOT a $3000+ Tenor sax.
I reiterate - I like these, they are classics. But they are not worth $3000, they just aren't.

So...to answer OP....NO, 'springing for' the RTH versions....

...is absolutely NOT worth it (unless to you...being able to say "mine has RTH's"...is worth $750-1500 in and of itself).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,232 Posts
Yes Conn has a great, big and warm sound that is hard not to like!
I think that the New Wonders are great as well. So why not try both if you have the chance?

I'm of the opinion that straight tone holes 10m are just as great as RTH.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,112 Posts
My non-RTH 1950 10M is an absolute joy to play. I regularly play it next to a Mark VI and often prefer it. The keywork is absolutely fantastic, especially once I got it set up right. Very light, crisp action and mine was able to be set up with pretty low key heights without any tone or intonation penalty.

I have been preferring a late King Super 20 lately, which is a great horn, but the Conn's keywork makes the king feel like a bit of a blunt instrument by comparison. What Conn accomplished with the 10M was really special, I think.

I got mine for $1650 on the forum a few years ago and that seems like a pretty average deal for a relacquered 10M from the early 50's in decent working order. Someday I'd like to try a really good pre-war model (and a transitional, and a new wonder, and...) against it, but those really do seem to be selling for over a grand more. Maybe they are worth it, but right now I'm not terribly motivated to find out. My horn is too good to bother!
 

·
Moderator
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
29,885 Posts
I agree about the RTH not seeming to affect the performance. There are peope who think theoretically it is acoustically possible. And also credible people who are certain it happens (hence Peter Ponzol put them on his Pro-One. He told me they only have an effect on the low notes. I remain sceptical.

I assume Conn only put them on to marry up with the resopads, I haven't seen any marketing from Conn that they improve performance.
 

·
Registered
Conn New Wonder 1 Alto & Conn 10M Tenor
Joined
·
208 Posts
I have a STH 10M and really like it. Haven't personally tried a RTH Conn Tenor but have listened to some YouTube videos of some pre war (RTH) and post war (STH) Conn Tenors. only very minor differences in what I could hear but the pre war Conns sounded slightly better. Your average non playing listener probably wouldn't be able to tell a difference at all. FWIW.

Get the one you can afford but if you really want a RTH Conn save up some more for it.
 

·
Registered
Keilwerth SX90R Tenor, Selmer MVII Alto, Yamaha Flute, Fender American Tele
Joined
·
180 Posts
The ergos on Conn 10M's are as good as anything else. I absolutely love Conn's for many reasons. Just do it!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,408 Posts
I have a '61 non-RTH 10M that I bought from JayeLID, and I love it! Of course a lot of why I love it has to do with the way it was refurbed and set up. The man KNOWS how to set up a 10m, PERIOD! Is it the most beautiful horn in the world? No. does it play and sound great? YES. Did I get it for a decent price? Very much so. Am I happy that I bought what I bought, from the guy I bought it from? Yes, and YES. As for mechanical questions on any horn George offers his opinion on, you can believe what he has to say. He won't BS you. He has no need to. If you're OK with the ergonomics of an older horn, I suggest you find a reputable restorer to buy from, and buy a horn that's gotten the whole treatment from him. Don't spend thousands of dollars. Research what people like, for older horns, and then try any you can find, to play. Do your homework, as much as you're able to. I would not hesitate buying a pre-'66 10M, or a Martin Indiana, or a King Cleveland......all of which you should be able to buy for under $1000, in top playing condition. It's important you find that......"top playing condition." That matters more, than what it is. Good luck, and remember if you buy a well restored horn, you'll always be able to sell it, down the road, if it's one of those models people like.
Thanks again, George!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
192 Posts
The great buys in 10m's are the later ones rebuilt by a good tech. I have one I purchased for under 1000.00 all new pads and feels like new. Great horn. Do not be afraid to try any 10m that has been gone through there are some great ones out there. RTH are worth more I have a nice older 6m but again the price on the RTH models seems to be very high. Some techs can set up the conns others not so much same with Martins etc find one done by someone good you will know when you play it.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
3,303 Posts
I have a 1947 10M with straight tone holes. It is well set up and it sounds wonderful. As others have already said the over all condition and set up of the horn are what are important, not whether the tone holes are rolled or not.
I also play a 1952 Selmer, and for jazz tone, the Conn wins easily.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
104 Posts
I've played a few 10ms and owned 2 when I bought my second one (which is a 1946 horn) I play tested it against two other 10ms. A 1936 horn and my horn at the time a 1941. the later one absolutely blew it away no question about it. I even brought a friend with me to see if he agreed. and ended up trading mine. The later 10ms can be fantastic horns, and at a much cheaper price tag.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,495 Posts
with regards to Post and Pre War 10m's - here in the Southern Hemisphere I see no cost / price variance between the two respective vintages. A number of tech's claim the two models have an identical body so I reckon the overall condition of the horn is the most important aspect of consideration. To the OP - IF you buy a 10M and it doesn't suit you I doubt you'll have too much trouble finding a buyer.
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top