[reafbop]

Hi everyone , I have a Conn 10m Tenor. I changed a two pads earlier today . The F and apparently the aux key pad above the F.

The F key seated first go after I took out a pad that was torn and held in place by a tiny blob of opaque substance. However the aux key pad which seems to be controlled by the F key has a great big gap . While it is seems to be seated properly in the cup , there seems to be a gap from the pad to the tone-hole which is extraordinarily big on closing. I have looked for adjustment screws but there are none.

Anyone got any tips on how to close this big gap?

 

[turf3]

Cork.

 

[kreacher]

What turf said. There is cork missing on the back on the saxophone, on the lower stack. When you press down on the E and D key, does the F# key close? I presume the aux key above the F you're talking about is the F# key.

If it closes with the other two keys, then it's just that piece of cork missing, otherwise, maybe they all need to be put there.

 

[reafbop]

I presume the aux key above the F you're talking about is the F# key.

That is right!.. There is a bit of cork missing.. If I put the cork in place . I am not sure how that will get the Aux key (the cup above the F) to work. Won't the aux key be pushed much higher than the tone hole? And not seat right?

 

[saxoclese]

The "aux key pad above the F" is called the F#---not to be confused with the key you press to play F# which is called the E. You opened a "can of worms" when you replaced the F# and F pads because the "regulation" has probably changed. By "regulation" I mean that the F, E, and (sometimes) D need to close the F# which in turn needs to close the G# and the Bis. On modern saxes this regulation can be accomplished by turning adjusting screws. On vintage saxes the regulation is done by sanding cork, and/or bending keys.

 

[reafbop]

I mean 'Can't' get seated. It's like it floating above tone hole.

 

[JayeLID]

OK let's get nomenclature corrected from hereon....

It's the F and F#, as noted by others. 'Auxiliary key' isn't a useful term.

"Seated" means the pad takes an indentation via clamping. So what you mean is the pad is not sealing, the key not closing completely.

So, as Saxoclese said, when you changed the F or F# pad, you messed up the relationship of regulation (cork thickness) between the F and F# pad. You changed both pads.

In your case, the cork regulating F to F# is too thin to close the F# completely.

So...you have to disassemble the lower stack again, find the 'foot' of the F key, note where it meets the 'bench' of the F# key, and put new cork of proper thickness on the on the underside of the bench of the F# key (on a 10M the underside of the bench is flat, so as to receive glued cork).

This is gonna be a trial-and-error thing...you take a guess as to cork thickness, glue it on, reassemble the stack down to the F key, see if the F key now closes the F# and if it does, does it now create a leak in the F key ?.... if so - you gotta sand down the cork you just installed until the F key and F# key seal simultaneously.

Now if not, if the new cork STILL doesn't make the F# close all the way, you add more cork to the cork you just installed.

This is sheet cork...not something one typically buys at a hardware store (which at best might sell 1/16" gasket cork, which is kinda hard to work with for a sax situation....) I suppose a DIY'er could try using a shop blade to trim/shave a thin piece of cork off of a wine cork and it might work...

You also need contact cement..just a little jar with a brush. And an emery board (aka cardboard nailfile)

 

[kreacher]

Yes, that is the F# key (or tonehole if it makes it less confusing for you). When you press down the F key, if you follow that key action/mechanism to the back of the saxophone, it will push onto a "rod" that also is pushed by the E and D keys, and that "rod" is what closes F#.

The cork that is missing is between that "rod" and the mechanism when you press F. So, it will close up the space, not make it bigger.

 

[JayeLID]

Now, that might NOT be the end of the problem....because since you changed the F# pad, you may also have to re-cork/regulate the E to F# connection....because you have also now put that relationship 'out of whack' because of the new pad.

 

[reafbop]

Ok , I am getting there. I will have to look at all of this in better light as it is late in the Uk.. But thanks I know where to look now .. Thank you all!

 

[JayeLID]

Best of luck. Here's a snapshot of a 10M where F keyfoot meets the F# bench. That is the area of focus. You can see cork on the underside of bench in pic.

 

[reafbop]

Yes!!! I have found the Magic spot.. Will try and get some cork tomorrow... Cheers to you all!

 

[reafbop]

thanks! Why is it hiding there.. Lol

 

[JayeLID]

thanks! Why is it hiding there.. Lol

LOL....Tell us about it...:dazed:.....one little thing you want to access ~ and you gotta take apart the whole damn stack....:evil:

 

[lostcircuits]

LOL....Tell us about it...:dazed:.....one little thing you want to access ~ and you gotta take apart the whole damn stack....:evil:

You can do it with some fine tweezers or forceps, it's an exercise in finger acrobatics but it can be done and once you get the hang of it, it is a lot easier than taking apart the entire stack :evil:

 

[clarnibass]

Another thing to check...

The F# key is also closing the G# key (the one just above it, top most in your sketch).

Since you changed the F and F# key pads, it's possible that it is hitting/closing G# before F# can fully close.

 

[turf3]

Here's what I do:

First I'll scrape off all the old cork with the tip of an Xacto knife.

Then I'll use some alcohol on a Q tip to clean the surface, so the new cork will stick (there is often a lot of oily residue).

Cut a piece of sheet cork that appears to be the appropriate thickness - or a bit thicker. Actually for a small piece like this you can use wine cork if it's real cork (not the champagne corks that are made of ground and compressed cork (kind of like "cork-burger")), and cut the wine cork into a small piece as if it were from sheet.

Split a reed into a thin sliver longitudinally. Use Weldwood Contact Cement and the reed to apply a small amount of contact cement to the rear bar or key foot - whichever one is where the cork is normally installed on that particular instrument (don't let the cement get on the body of the horn). Put some contact cement on the surface of the cork bit.

Allow the contact cement on both parts to dry.

Impale the cork piece on the tip of the XActo knife blade and fish it in there, get it stuck to the bar or foot, then you can pull the knife blade out of it and just the side of the blade to press the cork firmly into place.

Let the cement cure a bit longer.

Tear a long narrow strip (like 1/8" wide and 2" long) of 180-220 grit sandpaper. Wet or dry paper is best as it's tough.

Sand the cork down by sticking the strip of sandpaper between the cork and the metal part it bears against - grit against the cork, not against the metal! - push down on the key ever so gently, withdraw the sandpaper. Repeat as many times as needed (tedious!) till cork is correct thickness.


It's a heck of a lot easier to yank the whole stack off and not fish in there with different tools, if you're replacing all the corks in a stack, but for just one I'd say it's probably about a wash as to time and trouble.

If you're changing out pads that are in poor condition, the adjustment corks may be in poor condition too (oil soaked, crumbly, almost falling off) so it may just be the smartest thing to yank the upper and lower stacks off the thing and replace all the corks at once, with good clean new high quality sheet cork. At least then you've got something solid to start off with.

 

[turf3]

Another thing to check...

The F# key is also closing the G# key (the one just above it, top most in your sketch).

Since you changed the F and F# key pads, it's possible that it is hitting/closing G# before F# can fully close.

A lot of times you need to just scrape off one or two adjustments corks, so you can see clearly the seating of the pad without the corks hindering its full closing. Then replace the corks with new.

 

[saxoclese]

These are the "tools" I use to handle small pieces of cork and felt. (It is why God made drum sticks. ) You can also buy a "pin vice" to hold the spring/needle as well.

 

[clarnibass]

A lot of times you need to just scrape off one or two adjustments corks, so you can see clearly the seating of the pad without the corks hindering its full closing. Then replace the corks with new.

Sure, though the point was just to check if that's the problem, or one of the problems. No amount of messing with corks on the back bar adjustment would help if this is happening, which might if he used a thinner pad for F#, etc. Very easy to check by closing the F# key itself and not by one of the right hand stack keys.