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Confused by pentatonics?

5K views 40 replies 13 participants last post by  Pete Thomas 
#1 ·
As a guitar player I learned pentatonics this way

12356 major 61235 minor
Cdega acdega

Reading about pentatonics for sax, it says major stays the same, but minor is C d Eb f g Bb.

?...
 
#5 ·
FWIW, music theory doesn't know or care which instrument you are playing. The rules are immutable.

I would question any website that claims music theory rules exclusive to saxophone.

As a guitar player I learned pentatonics this way

12356 major 61235 minor
Cdega acdega

Reading about pentatonics for sax, it says major stays the same, but minor is C d Eb f g Bb.

?...
 
#6 ·
As a guitar player I learned pentatonics this way

12356 major 61235 minor
Cdega acdega

Reading about pentatonics for sax, it says major stays the same, but minor is C d Eb f g Bb.

?...
pentatonic is a 5 note scale. so the version you have written with 6 notes, starting on c, is not a pentatonic scale

so, starting on c we can get

major pentatonic: C D E G A
minor pentatonic C Eb F G Bb ( this can be thought of as derived from Eb major, and may be the one you are thinking about. but the d is not in it . it is the C equivalant of the A minor that you mention)
minor pentatonic C D Eb G A ie simply take the major version and flatten the 3rd.
 
#7 ·
+1 to all the responses above. As Pete says, it's very important to keep in mind the tonal center. You're on the right track using a number system, but it's important to base it on the key center (or root, when dealing with chords). So for major and minor pentatonic scales:

major pent = 1 2 3 5 6

minor pent = 1 b3 4 5 b7

Also there are other pentatonic scales (as KMR pointed out, pentatonic refers to any 5 note scale).

Another minor pentatonic that I like is 1 2 b3 5 6. That's a different variation, but it's still minor due to the b3.
 
#8 ·
My impression is that a Pentatonic is a five-note scale that, specifically, avoids the 7th. That that's the main purpose of it.

Pete touched on the harmonic progression. Avoiding the 7th also avoids a forward motion that is implied by the 7th; major 7th, minor 7th, dominant 7th. No 7th and you don't necessarily know what harmonic function is implied. It is both a weakness in that it doesn't firmly identify the forward motion, and liberating at the same time, because you're not tied to it.
 
#12 ·
An interesting thing about the common pentatonic scale (Major - 1 2 3 5 6 and Minor - 1 b3 4 5 b7) is that it can be found in music from almost every culture in the world. Many old European folk songs, Chinese folk songs, African folk songs, Indian folk songs and Native American songs have been created with those scales. There's something about it that appeals to the human brain.

Another interesting thing about the scale is that if you start on the third note of the major scale, or the fourth note of the minor one, you can construct the notes in the scale by going up by fourths. C major/A minor: E A D G C.

I have found it useful to improvise restricting myself to these notes - for example in Rhythm Changes (or any tune that stays close to one key center), find notes from that scale that fit the chord of the moment, and use only that scale to approach and decorate those notes. It's a different flavor, and can provide a nice contrast when you break in or out of it.

Another interesting approach is to use a DIFFERENT pentatonic - Rhythm Changes in Bb (C for tenor, G for alto), use the F major pentatonic (G for tenor, D for Alto) to construct melodies, using the same kind of approach as above, the sound is kind of "floating" above the changes because you never play the root of the key center.

I loves me my pentatonics :)
 
#14 ·
An interesting thing about the common pentatonic scale (Major - 1 2 3 5 6 and Minor - 1 b3 4 5 b7) is that it can be found in music from almost every culture in the world. Many old European folk songs, Chinese folk songs, African folk songs, Indian folk songs and Native American songs have been created with those scales. There's something about it that appeals to the human brain.
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2013/feb/15/ice-age-flute

Yes, it seems that people have been listening to pentatonic based music for a really long time. ;)
 
#17 ·
This is just one of those odd conventions because when talking intervals in numbers we are often talking generally with no reference to key signature or whether it’s major or minor, so in that case it’s all based off major.

Technically you might argue that it can be misleading to say b3 when the 3 is already defined in the key signature as minor, so in D minor the 3 is already F natural. We don’t think in this case b3 is Fb.

I suppose there is some sense because, as we know, the numbering system applies to any key and unless we say otherwise people think in the major. Perhaps it came before minor, who knows?

Another reason may be that there is only one basic scale when we refer to (e.g.) a tune in C major, but there are several scales that could be implied when we say a tune is in C minor.

So:

if you are in Cm , then 1 is C and b3 is Eb.

If 1 is A minor then then b3 is C

If 1 is D minor then then b3 is F

So odf course, 3 is only Cb if 1 is Ab minor.
 
#18 ·
The numbering system applies to any key.

So if you are in Cm , then 1 is C and b3 is Eb. If 1 is D minor then then b3 is F.

3 is only Cb if 1 is Ab minor.

Technically you might argue that it can be misleading to say b3 when the 3 is already defined in the key signature as minor, so in D minor the 3 is already F natural. We don't think in this case b3 is Fb.

This is just one of those odd conventions because when talking intervals in numbers we are often talking generally with no reference to key signature or whether it's major or minor, so in that case it's all based off major.
Its a lot easier for me to think in numbers more than scale tones.
I don't know why? just maybe from playing bass and guitar for years.
On bass I learned 5 pent shapes which stay the same, you just shift the keys starting point, sax is so much different fingerings to remember for every key.
 
#19 ·
Any 5 pitches within an octave can be a pentatonic, and there's lots of options for cool sounds that way. But -- sticking with the normal garden-variety pentatonic -- there's two important facts to keep in mind:

1) "Major" and "minor" pentatonic are the SAME, just starting on different degrees:

1 2 3 5 6 = C D E G A (C Major pentatonic)
6 1 2 3 5 = A C D E G (A minor pentatonic)

2) Any major scale contains within it 3 major pentatonics, starting on the scale degrees 1, 4, and 5:

C D E G A = starting on C in C major
F G A C D = starting on F in C major
G A B D E = starting on G in C major

If you want to play conventional popular sounds, the first is "correct". However, all three can be used -- for example, listen to Coltrane during the "Love Supreme" era.
 
#22 ·
Any 5 pitches within an octave can be a pentatonic, and there's lots of options for cool sounds that way. But -- sticking with the normal garden-variety pentatonic -- there's two important facts to keep in mind:

1) "Major" and "minor" pentatonic are the SAME, just starting on different degrees:

1 2 3 5 6 = C D E G A (C Major pentatonic)
6 1 2 3 5 = A C D E G (A minor pentatonic)
It's certainly true that the notes are the same. But one problem with putting it this way, however, is that the root in the A minor should be the 1. By definition, the 6th degree can't be the root. Thinking about it in the way that you suggest can be misleading because it conceals the relationships between the different degrees of the scale and the root.
 
#24 ·
You are right, thank you.
 
#26 ·
One more point: I think sometimes people get confused between analytical music theory and functional music theory. One's geared towards understand what's already been played or written; the other is focused of how to play or write new things. There's some contradictions between the two perspectives (we might be banging up against one right now).

Then there's also NO THEORY, which can sometime be the driving force behind very great music.
 
#33 ·
A thought experiment: Go to the piano. Play a C major pentatonic melody in the right hand, and a C in the bass.
Now play the same melody again, and play an A in the bass.

What happened -- is the melody "in a different scale"?

My opinion is "no": the tonal center remains C throughout, even if the bass note changes.
Your mileage may vary.
 
#35 ·
A thought experiment: Go to the piano. Play a C major pentatonic melody in the right hand, and a C in the bass.
Now play the same melody again, and play an A in the bass.

What happened -- is the melody "in a different scale"?

My opinion is "no": the tonal center remains C throughout, even if the bass note changes.
That's right, because you are still in the key of C. The bass can play a variety of notes in that key.

But I do agree that "whatever concepts get you the results you want are, for you, the correct ones." This is simply a discussion on various approaches in light of the OP's question. Obviously, the more you know and understand, the better.
 
#34 ·
J All the other relationships in terms of relative minor or modal scales are good to know and interesting said:
I'd say that depends on the type of music. Different styles of music are based on different harmonic concepts. Dixieland has one set of harmonic concepts; Indian ragas a very different set. The music I play is often based on pitch class sets. There is no right or wrong -- whatever concepts get you the results you want are, for you, the correct ones.
 
#37 ·
I seem to remember you posting about tonal centers.
So do I.

Now I am closing this thread temporaly while I sort it out. This is a beginners' information thread and should not have whole loads of off topic irrelevancies. If anyone wants to discuss moderator actions please do not do so within an information thread. You can use the report system, the posting enquiries forum (for polite and constructive enquiries about rules) or via PM.

I have asked to please keep it on topic, and given a reason why I asked that. Please respect that request and keep this beginners' thread on topic.

Thank you.
 
#40 ·
Thanks Pete, for reining us in (me included). You're right and in fact the thread could easily have ended after the first response by Veggie Dave, who summed it up nicely. But just to expand, slightly, on what he said, going back to the OP:

12356 major 61235 minor
If you want to learn major and minor pentatonic scales in all 12 keys, I see it happening in three steps:

1) Learn the 12 major scales
2) Learn the 12 major pentatonic scales using the formula: 1 2 3 4 5 (degrees of each major scale)
3) Learn the 12 minor pentatonic scales using the formula: 1 b3 4 5 b7 (degrees of each major scale, understanding that the b3 changes the scale from major to minor)

Deriving the minor pentatonic could also be done by applying 6 1 2 3 5 of the major scale but this doesn't highlight what makes it minor (the b3) because you are still 'operating' in the relative major key.

I'm not sure that clears anything up, but it just makes more sense to assign the "1" to the key center. For example, the options for three different minor pentatonics that KMR put in the post above are easily understood by starting each with the key center as the "1". And you can immediately see the intervallic (can I use that term?) relationships of the notes.
 
#41 ·
Thanks Pete, for reining us in (me included). You're right and in fact the thread could easily have ended after the first response by Veggie Dave, who summed it up nicely. But just to expand, slightly, on what he said, going back to the OP:
All good stuff and nice to get back on the rails. But we do now alos have an interesting thread from the OT on here so waste not want not.
 
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