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Discussion Starter #1
What do you think guys? I know Garrett is an altoist and trane is more to tenorist but in terms of their creativity, skills and music what do you think?

Heres what I think:

Creativity and inteligence: Kenny Garret (listen to his album beyond the wall)
Skills: even
Music: Kenny Garrett (It has emotion, feelings, great articulation, meaningful melodies not just scaling up and down and doing thrills)

Verdict: Kenny garret for me is better musician. I think he's the greatest Jazz saxophonist

Not to "attack" trane's fans there but we have to move on, jazz has new idol!!

peace:cool:
 

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Huh?

Let me make sure I understand you. When you listen to Coltrane, all you hear is "scaling up and down and doing thrills"? If so, you need to do a lot, and I mean a lot more listening and studying, because that's some serious ignorance you're displaying there. You'd be much better served by just saying "I don't get what Coltrane's doing". That way you wouldn't have to pretend you know what you're talking about.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
milomo said:
Let me make sure I understand you. When you listen to Coltrane, all you hear is "scaling up and down and doing thrills"? If so, you need to do a lot, and I mean a lot more listening and studying, because that's some serious ignorance you're displaying there. You'd be much better served by just saying "I don't get what Coltrane's doing". That way you wouldn't have to pretend you know what you're talking about.
hey chill out man, I am not kids and I am not ignorance. I listen to coltrane and he is one of my favourite. All I am saying is trane is good but "boring" in the same time. I am not pro in jazz music and yes I am still learning BUT i've been listening to jazz since I was 12. I am not trying to kick coltrane down to the lower level, he is one of the greatest saxophonist and he is a genius I admit that.

All I am saying is that Kenny garret is smarter in terms of pleasing people's ear. Thats all man, no hard feeling. I am tranes fan myself

And actually in my novice ear, tranes solo mostly contains of scaling fast, up and down, with some thrills. You have to admit it, its what he does. Theres nothing wrong with that and infact every solo from every player I hear doing this but all I am saying is Kenny garret does that scaling up and down and thrilling in smarter way. For example, song called Giant Steps, it sounds great in the beginning, I can sing the melody sounds so nice but he ruins it with his solo. Again this is my opinion as he "attacks" too soon with fast play all the sudden. Trane is too emotional in my opinion. He plays for himself mainly and seems dont care what others thinking but this is what makes him one of the greatest, his pure ignorance, his skills and his emotion.

Its just my opinion, you have different one, then i respect it but dont attack me by saying I am ignorance.
 

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I'm with Calisax.
Why doing this competition.
For example, to my ears John Coltrane's music is a kind of purity in that way that his ego shut up! Everything is obvious and perfect in its context.
In Kenny Garrett's music, I can hear his ego, I can hear when he wants to seduce the audience, when he wants to show his technics, when he wants to impress other jazzmen: yes, I can hear all this in Garrett's music. In Trane music, I just hear his soul.
Despite of this, I can have pleasur listening to Garrett's music, but it doesn't last very long ...
Just my feeling 'bout this two musicians
 

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Coltrane vs Kenny Garrett?

Hmm

Trane by knockout in the 5th. But that KG's resilient. He'll pick himself up and make a good career as a light heavyweight...yadda..

Seriously: These "competition" type threads are always a bit questionable but in this case it really is comparing apples with bananas. They play very different styles, different instruments (mainly) and inhabit totally different musical contexts. They never shared a stage either. It's not possible to say anything really meaningful on this one, I don't think. Sorry, msj10. :)
 

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mjs10 said:
And actually in my novice ear, tranes solo mostly contains of scaling fast, up and down, with some thrills.
(...)
example, song called Giant Steps, it sounds great in the beginning, I can sing the melody sounds so nice but he ruins it with his solo. Again this is my opinion as he "attacks" too soon with fast play all the sudden.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDiWvTNPRuk

If Coltrane is "mostly playing scales up and down" and "attacking too soon with fast play all the sudden", what is Kenny doing here then? (great solo by the way)

:twisted:

playing scales up and down... yeah yeah. Transposing solo's might shine a whole new light on the subject...

PS : for those who would like to know the end of the story :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8YqwRgtnHY
 

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mjs10 said:
hey chill out man, I am not kids and I am not ignorance.


You sure sound like one here. You ever hear of articles or any other grammar related things?

And I agree with Nef. As Abersold says, "It's hard to play jazz when you're dead!"
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Jolle said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDiWvTNPRuk

If Coltrane is "mostly playing scales up and down" and "attacking too soon with fast play all the sudden", what is Kenny doing here then? (great solo by the way)

:twisted:

playing scales up and down... yeah yeah. Transposing solo's might shine a whole new light on the subject...

PS : for those who would like to know the end of the story :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8YqwRgtnHY
Jolle, kenny didnt play fast at first if you noticed he did has fast opening for few seconds and THEN slowed down, that is nice!!!then increase his tension and then attacks with speed. This what I like about him plus he's playing trane's master piece he has a great respect for Trane, and I know he wants to immitate trane in his early career like all saxophonist out there.

However...

This is kenny garret playing trane's masterpiece, off course he wants to sound a bit like him to show his respect

I am talking about his own creation. Look at beyond the wall for instance, have you listened to the songs in that new album??? A WOW!!! I have never ever imagined before that jazz can get together with chinese music he even put an er hua (chinese sitar) in one of his song. This is the creativity that I am talking about so please I am not trying to make competition here I just want to make a point that we have a new idol here:cool:

They both are GODS of saxophonist. But Mr Garrett can be the greatest of all time.

Have a listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M75iYZ-_Jg&mode=related&search=

look how he has his climax...not complex notes but very good climax...listen like 1 minute before it finish.

Again here hes doing it again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3Au2NMbJVk&mode=related&search=

Listen to his solo, fast slow...more tension...release then climax at the end with an excellent choice of notes.

I am not a pro player but my ear is trained since I was 12 years old maybe less than that as my dad was trane and davies fanatics.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Martinman said:
You sure sound like one here. You ever hear of articles or any other grammar related things?

And I agree with Nef. As Abersold says, "It's hard to play jazz when you're dead!"
I believe we are not in language forum and I think you are the one who's childish if you want to try to pick a fight then I am pissing myself scared :D

I am not trying to have some un healthy debate here, as I said if you dont like what I am posting then be my guest, say anything you want. I am not offending you, you are not trane I am not offending trane either, i said he is great I admit that. I am just trying to express my opinion OK? Free country.
 

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mjs10 said:
I believe we are not in language forum and I think you are the one who's childish if you want to try to pick a fight then I am pissing myself scared :D

I am not trying to have some un healthy debate here, as I said if you dont like what I am posting then be my guest, say anything you want. I am not offending you, you are not trane I am not offending trane either, i said he is great I admit that. I am just trying to express my opinion OK? Free country.

Ok, I just want you to express your opinion in a coherant manner.:)

And if you say that anyone is better than Trane (except maybe Brecker or Bird) you should expect a BIG dose of unhealthy debate.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
silvin said:
I'm with Calisax.
Why doing this competition.
For example, to my ears John Coltrane's music is a kind of purity in that way that his ego shut up! Everything is obvious and perfect in its context.
In Kenny Garrett's music, I can hear his ego, I can hear when he wants to seduce the audience, when he wants to show his technics, when he wants to impress other jazzmen: yes, I can hear all this in Garrett's music. In Trane music, I just hear his soul.
Despite of this, I can have pleasur listening to Garrett's music, but it doesn't last very long ...
Just my feeling 'bout this two musicians
This is nice statement from you, i respect this kind of statement. I do agree with you but I am not trying to create a competition as it is impossible. And I respect what you think when you hear tranes play or garretts play. This is a mature reply and good discussion, not cussing or attacking like someone did.

All I am saying is this...

From my ear they have similar but different perspective and style but still they come in one root. Trane was a legend and yes he doesnt live very long and i deeply regret it. My dad even cried when he died (he told me this). All I am saying is that Trane was not a pure entertainer (exactly as how you put it) but Garrett is. To be a great idol, one great musician must be both entertainer and have his own emotion and character. Trane doesnt have the entertainer soul. He sounds depressed in every of his song. He was suffering mentally in his life thats what my dad told me. And I can feel it, I wonder what went wrong with him? family? friends? His health? He has very beautiful tone, masterful technics and progression, his giant step is truely masterpiece, i love his naima too.

But it doesnt move people's heart. People or should I say...jazz musician(mostly) adore and idolize him. But he cant capture the heart of other people who dont know jazz to like jazz. My mom hate trane, she said hes too noisy, well she got no idea of what jazz is. But garrett can make someone who doesnt like jazz at first become to love jazz music. My wife is one of them.

My wife dont like trane, same thing, too noisy but she loves kenny garrett. Why? cus he is an entertainer with technics and skills in par with coltrane, so he got advantage here.

Long that I have this kind of thinking and I wasnt dare to ask public on what you think about this thought as I was afraid that I may hurt some peoples feeling about trane. (it happens) I never intend to disrespect trane, he is great, period. One of the greatest but my point is he doesnt have the soul of entertainer.
 

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Martinman said:
Ok, I just want you to express your opinion in a coherant manner.:)
.
mjs10: It might be useful if there was a little more info about you in your profile and beneath your screen name. I think I can tell from your posts that English is not your first language. If people know that for sure then they probably won't pick you up on the way you express yourself. If they think English is your first language then they may think some of the things you say are just so awkwardly expressed that they find it hard to take your message seriously. Do you see what I mean? :)
 

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I'm sure we all know how I feel on this subject. I think you should've made it a poll, though.

+1 for Coltrane. ;)

BTW - I happen to really love Kenny Garrett and his music. I think he would be chimming in for Trane on this one as well. For originality and creativity I would probably choose Steve Coleman as far as altoists (alive) goes. But, that's me and my opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Martinman said:
Ok, I just want you to express your opinion in a coherant manner.:)

And if you say that anyone is better Trane (except maybe Brecker or Bird) you should expect a BIG dose of unhealthy debate.
Picture this(abstract example, not talking about anyone here)
Someone wanna be a musician...Its easy to be a musician, you can learn music, sax, piano or whatever for years and years and play it in your home without anyone listening to you, just your sorry self and your dog. You can create songs and great tunes but what does it mean without people admiring it. So to be a great musician you have to be a great show musician. I think this makes sense anyone not agreed then you better go in your room and play your horn alone...
So?
What makes someone a great show musician:
1. Ability and knowledge of music
2. Creativity, be able to create songs, lyrics, tunes, masterpiece
3. Be in a good band with other musician as a team in 1 soul
4. be able to entertain and take people's heart, knows the art of performing on stage. OR
5. All of the above

Garrett has everything there as a show musician, Trane in the other hand also have everything there but lacking on no 2 and 4.

This is what I am trying to say, so not to offend you and not to try to talk down on other musician. I pick trane and garret as they are considered the greatest of all time. Not to downgrade one of them. Garrett is better and can become a new idol because he knows his music, he got tallents, he knows what hes doing, he knows he scales, know how to please people and ...
know how to...
MAKE MONEY!!!

The last one is the hard part as some musician having trouble making money, why? LACKS of creativity.

By the way have you ever listened to Garretts album?? I have doubts you never listen to any of them. If you do I sincerely apologize.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
RootyTootoot said:
mjs10: It might be useful if there was a little more info about you in your profile and beneath your screen name. I think I can tell from your posts that English is not your first language. If people know that for sure then they probably won't pick you up on the way you express yourself. If they think English is your first language then they may think some of the things you say are just so awkwardly expressed that they find it hard to take your message seriously. Do you see what I mean? :)
Thanks for pointing it out I understand...
True english is not my first language, so does it mean that if someone was learning hard enough to learn english so someone from english speaking background can mock me? Try learning my language and I will laugh at you too =) (not talking about you rootytoot)

I never pick on anyone just because he speaks double dutch or his skin color or his background...

Only an immature person can think this way all I see in this screen is words not a person. IF someone judge me bad by the way I write then I can stomp on his face too. English may not be my first language but I know some words so dont you worry, I'll fight back =)
 

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I just have a few words to say here. Music outside of high school in not a competition, it is an art. Jazz is an art that has been passed down form gneration to generation. Yes Kenny Garrett does often play in the same style of Coltrane, but only because he studied Coltrane. John Coltrane's melodic lines are some of the most soulful lines I have ever heard, sometimes I can feel his emotion in his playing that can bring tears to my eye. Kenny Garrett is one of the most technical players I have heard, his lines are clear and his execution is effortless.

Yes they are both Masters of Jazz. No, they are not competing.

Coltranes music can be too much for some people to handle of understand, I have actually seen people who buy Coltrane recordings, not like them, but after a few years of maturity they can't get enough.

So when it's all said and done with, Music is Art and not a competition, and it is our musical contributions that keep it alive, please don't forget that!!!:)
 
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