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Discussion Starter #1
Hi - newbie here from the UK. I'm actually a guitarist who has a healthy obsession about the 50's r'n'b sax style (why don't folk sound like that anymore!?) - particularly the recordings of Bill Doggett, Red Prysock, and any that feature Plas Johnson, King Curtis, Steve Douglas etc.

Gotta say it, but my favourite all time Tenor Sax man is Clifford Scott - I still have the Parlophone 78rpm of Honky Tonk pts I + II which my Father bought back in '56 - i've since collected a whole heap of Doggett recordings on 78rpm, 45rpm, LP etc...which brings me to my first question.


Years ago, I remember seeing a reference to a couple of Clifford Scott solo LP's that were recorded about 1958/59.


So.


Can anyone confirm this?


Secondly, is there a comprehensive list of Clifford's session recordings? - I know he played with many different people from Bill Doggett, Freddie King to James Brown......



thanks


1Dawg.
 

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1Dawg, our resident rock 'n roll expert is John Laughter; if anybody knows, John does. You out there, John?......:)
 

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While you're waiting for a comprehensive answer ...

I really love Clifford's solo on "Hippy Dippy" with Bill Doggett. It's on alto and seems just right somehow.

I got Curtis Swift to transcribe it: http://www.saxsolos.com/

And Curtis has also got transcriptions of Honky Tonk Parts I and II.

All the best

Rhys
 

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1Dawg, here is some info and sites which may be of some help. When it comes to the additional seesions that he played on I have never found a lot of info.

Clifford Scott was born December 21, 1928, in San Antonio, Texas. He began playing at the Keyhole Club in 1946. He worked with Lionel Hampton from 1948 to 1950. He performed with the R&B bands of Roy Milton and Roy Brown until 1953. He rejoined Hampton again, then left in 1954 to study music in New York and joined Bill Doggett in 1956. While with Doggett, the classic “Honky Tonk” was recorded. His four part tenor solo with the trademark intro and thumping R&B Hammond filled airwaves and dance halls across the nation for several years. It was performed in every club, bar, and roadhouse imaginable and by many bands that were fortunate to have a sax player. It also introduced many young sax players to the unique “flutter tongue” technique used in the fourth solo. Clifford Scotts’s tone, technique, and overall style in “Honky Tonk” would have a far reaching effect on many sax players for years to come.

In 1961, he left for Los Angeles to work at the Parisian Room. He moved back to San Antonio in 1976 and was active until his death on April 19, 1993.

“Honky Tonk” came together in February, 1956, during the many one-night stands the group played coast to coast. At first hearing, there was nothing fancy about it. However, Doggett knew he had a potential dance hit as night after night he received positive response from the crowd. “Honky Tonk” was recorded for King Records in its New York studio on June 16, 1956. The success of “Honky Tonk” was a two-edged sword. The group received offers for numerous bookings but most were to appear in rock and roll settings, and the group did not consider themselves rock and roll.

The following comes from John Broven’s sleeve notes for the CD “Honky Tonk!” - Ace 761. “Honky Tonk” was conceived by Clifford Scott and Billy Butler (who played guitar in Doggett’s combo) in an informal hotel room jam session before a dance in Lima, Ohio. That night, on stage and without rehearsal, Butler told Bill Doggett and drummer Shep Shepherd to “just play a shuffle” and when they got through the people started to applaud. They wouldn’t get off the dance floor, they just continued to stand there and applaud “more, more, more..” So they did it again, played some other tunes and had an intermission, and when they came back the audience started yelling “We wanna hear that tune!” And they didn’t even have a name for it. When the band got back to New York, they set up a recording session with a studio down on 31st Street. The engineer turned the machine on, he goes out to take a smoke - he wasn’t regulating the controls, he wasn’t doing anything - and Doggett’s band went on and just played. When they started to stop, he said “Keep it up!”, which they did and that’s how it became a two-sided record. “Honky Tonk”, parts 1 & 2, went to # 2 on the pop charts and # 1 on the R&B charts in 1956. Writing credit goes to B. Doggett, S. Shepherd, C. Scott and B. Butler.

Courtesy http://www.doodlinlounge.com/news.html

R&B GOLD RECORD/BILLBOARD CHART BUSTER BILL DOGGETT’S HONKY TONK TURNS 50 [June 16th 1956-2006]

“Honky Tonk”, the hugely popular 1956 R&B Instrumental Gold Record of Jazz Pianist/Hammond B2 Organ Innovator, Bill Doggett turns 50 years old this June.

Recorded by King Records on June 16th, 1956 in New York, this famous R&B instrumental sold over 1 million 500 copies topped the Billboard charts for the entire summer of 1956 and was #2 nationally, second to Elvis Presley’s “Heartbreak Hotel.”

“Honky Tonk” was recorded as Parts 1 and 2 of King Records 78rpm# 4950 and featured the now legendary guitar and sax solo work of Combo members, Billy Butler and Clifford Scott, the cool drum work of Shep Shepard crowned by the innovative Hammond organ work of Doggett.

Historically, “Honky Tonk” was the breakthrough crossover R&B instrumental to be etched into the Soul of an American cultural and musical earthquake of the summer of 1956, called Rock n Roll. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland honors “Honky Tonk” as one of the top 500 songs that shaped Rock n’ Roll.

Also earning Billboard’s Top Crown Award and Top R&B Combo Award, along with Cash Box’s Most Programmed Instrumental Combo, “Honky Tonk” was recently inducted into The Hall of Fame of Memphis’ The Blues Foundation in May 2006.

Remembering “Honky Tonk”, the top R&B instrumental of 1956 Sock Hops and High School Proms, a landmark recording that laid the foundation of inspiration for Rhythm and Blues and Jazz Organists and Combos for decades to come.

Written by Bill Doggett II, nephew/namesake of Honky Tonk Bill Doggett.

http://www.rockabilly.nl/references/messages/clifford_scott.htm

http://landing.com/profiles/scott.htm

http://www.artistdirect.com/nad/music/artist/card/0,,490676,00.html

http://www.emusic.com/album/Various-Artists-Fantasy-Prestige-Texas-Tenors-MP3-Download/10604106.html

http://www.mosaicrecords.com/discography.asp?number=MS-029

http://www.saxontheweb.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2269

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:h9ftxql5ldse

http://www.google.com/musica?aid=T_T8Oq3P2tK&sa=X&oi=music&ct=result

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/artist/Doggett,+Bill/a/Bill+Doggett.htm

http://www.answers.com/topic/bill-doggett?cat=entertainment

Billboard Top 40

#26 SLOW WALK-BILL DOGGETT-CLIFFORD SCOTT-TENOR

#35 SOFT-BILL DOGGETT
CLIFFORD SCOTT FLUTE lead
THOMAS “BEANS” BOWLES BARITONE solo.

#2 HONKY TONK (PARTS 1 & 2)-BILL DOGGETT-CLIFFORD SCOTT TENOR
 

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Discussion Starter #5
thanks for the replies - first and foremost, i'm really chasing the '50's solo stuff - It must have been out on King.....? It might have been just the one LP - it's so long since I saw a reference to it. I might even have dreamt it...:shock: :D


Yes Hippy Dippy's great but call me obvious, Honky Tonk is the perfect track - Billy Butler's solo too.

I always loved Rainbow Riot, Hot Ginger and Chloe too - particularly the fade out on the latter track.
 

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Appears On
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lionel Hampton
Lionel Hampton's Paris All-Stars (2000) $13.85
Freddie King
Ultimate Collection (2001) $12.99
Jimmy Witherspoon
Evenin' Blues (1963) $10.19


Appears On [Imports]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Betty Hall Jones
Complete Recordings 1947-1954 (2004) France $12.19
Freddie King
Blues Guitar Hero Vol. 2 (2002) England; United Kingdom




John may have covered all this in his post; I didn't double check everything.
 

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1Dawg said:
Hi - newbie here from the UK. I'm actually a guitarist who has a healthy obsession about the 50's r'n'b sax style (why don't folk sound like that anymore!?) - particularly the recordings of Bill Doggett, Red Prysock, and any that feature Plas Johnson, King Curtis, Steve Douglas etc.
This is one of my favorite styles also, especially for the tenor sax, but also the entire jump blues type of sound. I wish you lived nearby, I'd recruit you into my band on guitar!

Why don't folk sound like that anymore? Partly because a lot of modern musicians aren't aware of this music in it's original state. Even many so-called "blues musicians" haven't delved into the genre beyond/before the more modern players. The other reason is that it is not nearly as easy to "sound like that" on the horn as you might suppose. The chord progressions might be simple, but guys like King Curtis & Clifford Scott were true masters, and that sound is not easily reproduced.
 

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JL said:
This is one of my favorite styles also, especially for the tenor sax, but also the entire jump blues type of sound. I wish you lived nearby, I'd recruit you into my band on guitar!

Why don't folk sound like that anymore? Partly because a lot of modern musicians aren't aware of this music in it's original state. Even many so-called "blues musicians." The other reason is that it is not nearly as easy to "sound like that" on the horn as you might suppose. The chord progressions might be simple, but guys like King Curtis & Clifford Scott were true masters, and that sound is not easily reproduced.
All true. It's also true that many players have contempt both for the style and for the music these musicians played. Their loss, I say. But have you ever tried to get a Coltrane purist (no disrespect! I love the man) to listen to Earl Bostic? Much less get them to believe that Trane learned certain things from Bostic? Go for it.
 

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Reedsplinter said:
All true. It's also true that many players have contempt both for the style and for the music these musicians played. Their loss, I say. But have you ever tried to get a Coltrane purist (no disrespect! I love the man) to listen to Earl Bostic? Much less get them to believe that Trane learned certain things from Bostic? Go for it.

Absolutely, I'm into Jazz in most of its forms (never got Cecil Taylor's thing though....), however it always puzzled me that so many sax players would only 'start' with, say, Wayne Shorter or Coltrane. I could/can hear when someone had no history in their playing - the tone was often lacking even though the technical facility was there. This for me was pushed even more so by the 80's Brecker disciples (RIP Michael - sorry no disrespect, but i'm no fan).

Then there's players like Parker - whenever I hear Parker, there's SO much blues in there. If not in the harmony, but in his tone; that's been forgotten/ignored by a lot of folk - in fact so many music colleges look at it in such a highbrow way - sure he had his harmony down, but the essential ingredient is that soulful 'rocking' quality. You don't get that from books!

I think that's why Cannonball Adderley is my favourite alto sax player period - in fact my favourite Jazz player period; he could play with Miles, Coltrane and Bill Evans and then do a club gig where he was as gritty and as rocking as hell - in a BB King sort-of way. And that TONE. Phew. His break in Miles' Love for sale from 1958 is absolute heaven to my ears.

Parker, Cannonball, Coltrane all knew where it came from and never disrespected any of the blues guys - it's a shame we've lost that vibe
 

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1Dawg said:
Parker, Cannonball, Coltrane all knew where it came from and never disrespected any of the blues guys - it's a shame we've lost that vibe
It won't be ALL gone as long as at least some folks have ears. . . .
 

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1Dawg said:
Parker, Cannonball, Coltrane all knew where it came from and never disrespected any of the blues guys - it's a shame we've lost that vibe
So true what you say about Cannonball, etc. I'm not sure we've lost that vibe totally; at least I hope not!

ALL the great jazz players up through the 60s were drenched in blues, even the more far out players like Ornette and Archie Shepp. When I was growing up in High School I was a big blues fan (still am!) and saw lots of live performances by Albert King and the like. That led me directly into jazz. The minute I heard a recording of Cannonball Adderly, there it was! That same bluesy sound, just a bit more sophisticated maybe. I saw a concert with Sonny Rollins, Max Roach, and others in 1969, and there it was again---heavy blues in every note. Go back further to Coleman Hawkins, Lester Young, and all of them. You'll hear the blues, through & through.

And not just sax players. Listen to Horace Silver, Miles Davis, Jimmy Smith, Count Basie, Duke; well you get the point.
 

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Sorry, perhaps I over generalized when I said 'we've lost the vibe' as i'm sure the tradition of Jazz in the U.S is still aware of its roots to some extent. Over here - I think perhaps because the hard swinging side of the music always felt 'borrowed', a really different take on the music has happened over the last 25 years or so and it's something i'm really not into - the whole ECM thing took off and as great as some of that is, there's a legion of college students being taught a washed out insipid gutless form of Jazz purely on a harmonic level with no connection to blues whatsoever.


Without naming names, there are a few 'respected' figures in the European Jazz scene that simply cannot play blues and who are in high positions of educational authority. Not good.
 

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Clifford Scott is the threshold EVERY tenor player should cross.

There was a time that YOU HAD to know tunes like Honky Tonk.
Or " Tuff" etc etc.

I had the great pleasure of working with Bill Doggett in the mid-70s after graduating from Berklee. I auditioned...on Honky Tonk. :D
Doggett didn't mess around - he told me meet him in front of Port Authority
at 5:00 in the morning - the next day and we were going
to Cleveland Ohio to play a month at a club .So I show up on 9th ave side of P.A bus terminal as told, Get in Doggetts van ( which was Purple !!! )
-So we check into this hotel ( finally ) in Clevland . :)
THE GIG- was great.....we hit places like.........
- " Astells " in Boston
- " The GrassHut " in Chicago
_ " The Key Club " in Newark
_ " The Club Baby Grand " in Harlem .


Plus other spots in the hoods that those bands played. 4 sets a night , usually 2 afternoon sets in the week . ( like Saturday or Sunday )
Plus- times were different then- I played a Lawton 10 star
BB Bronze , Tenor mouthpiece and Rico brown box #5 reeds.
I also played Bari on those gigs. ( Couf to Low A , with
Lawton 8 star BB , with Rico 5 reeds )
I replaced Bubba Brooks , and really LEARNED a lot from Doggett.
I never met Clifford Scott. He was the original tenor on that
hit tune .
Those were great times , 6 night a week gig , Milner Hotels ,
cheap food and great audiences , reeds were 7 bucks a box in
Mannys in NYC.
YUP- long gone .....including the Ascots and Powder blue
shirts that were one of the band uniforms , as well as white
satin pants in the summer . LOL . If you didn't wear your
ascot.....Doggett fined you ! LOL...

When.....I played with Bill Doggett ( years 73-late 75)
growling was essential on tunes like..." Slow Walk " and " Honky Tonk" .
The GROWL- is best used mid to upper range.


The -FLUTTER TOUNGE- is much different.
You'll hear it on - Jr Walkers tune- SHOTGUN.
OK , PLUS I GOTTA MENTION the solo on " Twistin the night away " .
THe Sam Cooke version. ( By KIng Curtis) CHECK THAT:)

Clifford Scott was an master on this.....with Doggett.
IMHO ...Clifford was unsung saxophonistically. WHY , don't
more of people know of him is beyond me. :? :!:



There are two great CDs of Clifford Scotts you can usually find on Amazon.com and they are worth every cent.



Mr. Honky Tonk Is Back in Town by Clifford Scott


Texas Tenor by Clifford Scott




Without a doubt they are funky tenor and something to hear.
Guys like Clifford, Lee Allen , Red Tyler, King Curtis etc etc were the
backbone of tenor playing. I get concerned because these enviroments like the clubs etc are not around anymore. Even the audiences have changed. IMHO- these bands and players were an education unto themselves. I worry that young players will miss the essence of THAT _message the sax had_IN THE MUSIC. Or never understand how to reach a audience thru their sax. CLIFFORD WAS A MASTER AT THIS....some call it houserockin'.
Jazz saxophone is a lot more than a designer mouthpiece ( please, no offence to you mouthpiece gurus ) and a real book and the omni book. Ya know ? !? It's about putting yourself INTO the horn and hitting the music from your visions and experience.
That's a degree in a different way- anyhow...sorry I went on so long.
I love Clifford Scott..and all the other grits and funky players.

CHECK THOSE CDS OUT ; Enjoy:cool:








,
 

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Thanks, Tim! That was great. When I was first playing, yep, it was Honky Tonk, Tuff, and Tequila. You didn't know those, you were nothing.

Did you ever meet or hear the D.C. tenor player Joe Stanley, the guy who took Ace Cannon's chair with Bill Black after Ace began to have an independent career? He was a great player in this tradition -- gone now unfortunately.

Thanks again.
 

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Reedsplinter said:
Thanks, Tim! That was great. When I was first playing, yep, it was Honky Tonk, Tuff, and Tequila. You didn't know those, you were nothing.

Did you ever meet or hear the D.C. tenor player Joe Stanley, the guy who took Ace Cannon's chair with Bill Black after Ace began to have an independent career? He was a great player in this tradition -- gone now unfortunately.

Thanks again.
My pleasure- glad to help.

Joe Stanley...I heard of him but never heard or met. Another great player who meant something.

Thanks-:)



,
 

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Joe died early this year. I did a search for him on SOTW a couple of weeks ago -- he's nowhere! Here's his obit: now he'll be here, where he belongs (unfortunately the great pix of Joe when young didn't travel with the cut and paste):

The Man Who Was the King
Posted by Dave Nuttycombe on Jan. 10, 2007, at 7:35 pm

Joe Stanley, Dec. 1, 1935–Jan. 7, 2007.

To five decades’ worth of D.C.–area musicians and fans, saxophonist Joe Stanley was—as the title of his only album claims—the King of the Honky-Tonk Sax.

Stanley (pictured with the Saxtons, circa 1963) passed away Sunday evening, Jan. 7, at the age of 71. He had been diagnosed with brain and lung cancer in early December.

During his 50-plus years in D.C.’s music scene, Stanley led several bands—most notably the Top 40 show band the Saxtons—but he was most widely known as one of D.C.’s most sought-after sidemen. “[He was] the top instrumentalist in town,” says Mark Opsasnick, author of Capitol Rock, a history of the area’s early rock scene. “He was on call all over town.” Bandleaders from rival clubs would contact Stanley while he was onstage at one bar, Opsasnick says, and hire him to play with another band across town later that night.

“You had to do what you had to do to make a living,” Stanley told Opsasnick for Capitol Rock, “and I’d play seven nights a week.”

An original member of the Rainbows—which also featured Marvin Gaye—Stanley played with other D.C. hitmakers such as Link Wray, Don Covay, and Billy Stewart, as well as future Hee Haw star Roy Clark and Charlie “The Devil Went Down to Georgia” Daniels. Before he received his diagnosis, Stanley had been scheduled to tour with Delbert McClinton.

“Joe was the kinda guy…who somehow learned to play nightclub jazz, and R&B, and country, and rock ’n’ roll equally well,” says Bill Holland, longtime D.C. musician and former D.C. bureau chief for Billboard. How Stanley became so versatile, however, remains a mystery. “I don’t know whether he was self-taught; I’m sure he never went to music school,” Holland says. “I think he learned on the street, listening to people play live, and records,” says bassist John Previti, who played on Stanley’s album. “He had no music theory, per se. He was just seat-of-the-pants and ear all the way.”

Whatever his methods, Stanley developed a signature sound. “Nobody has that old-fashioned, real big, fat, Earl Bostic sound anymore,” says rockabilly stalwart Billy Hancock, a friend for 43 years and the last performing member of the Saxtons. “Most of the sax players these days…they go for a sweeter, higher [sound]. His was the big-brass-balls sound.”

Chris Hall, who manages Chick Hall’s Surf Club—the Bladensburg roadhouse where Stanley played a regular gig for the last few years—recalls that his mother was a fan of Bill Black’s Combo. Tired of hearing her family rave about “’this guy Joe,’” Hall recalls, she asked, “’Is he as good as the sax player in Bill Black’s Combo?’” When Chris told his mother that the two sax players were, in fact, the same person, he says, she responded, “’Oh, well, then he’s pretty good.’” (Stanley took over the Combo after Black’s death in ’65.)

“All of the staff loved Joe,” says a longtime Surf Club bartender who gave her name as Lori. “He will be sorely missed. We are all just heartbroken.”

Previti agrees. “With him gone—we just seem to be losing one of the pillars of our whole scene,” he says. “He was one of the people you gather around, you know?”





,[/QUOTE]
 
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