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Discussion Starter #1
This jewel has a single thin white stripe on the shank, not the usual thick cross-hatch pattern. It's very old, originally came from a music professor in Russia..nicely finished, perfect rails, super thin tip rail.
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For reference it's a 9*3 (supposedly.121) it plays great. Dark sonorous and powerful.

Honestly mostly I use 2 other killer primary tenor mpcs, but I could certainly use this Lakey as my main mpc..I've been wondering if it might be a special model, I know Mark S.(10mfan) had a rubber Lakey "Concert" model for sale. Could this be one of those ??


sorry no pics camera busted:(
 

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Is it still jet black? Plastic stays ultra black. Even when new black hard rubber isnt as completely black. If there is even minor coloration change it is probably hard rubber. 0ld ebolin pieces are plastic and they pretty much never change and they are 60 plus years old.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Yes it is shiny, but certainly does not look anything like the "Ebonite" stuff on the current Lakey website.

The thin white stripe marking is the curious thing to me, I have never seen another Lakey marked like it.

The guy I got it from was in Russia, (I traded him my 8*3 tenor) the seller said he got it from a music Prof at a University. So I guess I assumed it was older...OK maybe not. I am still curious though. It is truly a very fine playing mpc whatever it is.

FWIW I have two other "Classic" Lakeys for color comparison, a 15 yr old 8*3 alto (bought new) and a modern 7*3 tenor (recently bought used) reportedly sold new circa late '90's. Both are def "classic" models and both are well played and both still quite shiny black, I must say pretty much identical to my Lakey 9*3 except for the "stripe"

I got my first Lakey over 40 yrs ago from Claude himself in LA , a handmade 6*3 tenor I purchased from his shop, I played it for many many years. As I recall it never turned dull either like some HR mpcs do.

I do know what you mean Phil, I have a famous maker black HR mpc that I bought new less than a yr ago, and without any sunlight bleaching or warm water baths it's becoming quite "vintage" looking already.

Phil you are an expert, seems perhaps even the original handmade Lakeys were an Ebolin or "plastic" composition of some sort (rather than genuine hard rubber) ah well, now what about that stripe..?

Just as an aside I never really understood the bad rap Lakeys got on this forum..I have a theory, but that's for another thread..:whistle:
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Is it still jet black? Plastic stays ultra black. Even when new black hard rubber isnt as completely black. If there is even minor coloration change it is probably hard rubber. 0ld ebolin pieces are plastic and they pretty much never change and they are 60 plus years old.
Phil aren't some of those old ebolin mpcs worth a fortune these days ??
 

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Not a fortune but the fetch a pretty good price. usually under two hundred. Ive picked them up for well under.

tonalin tends to sell for a bit more...even thought it has more of a tendency to crack.

The old HR versions sell for more.

As for the bad rap...there are some horrible examples out there. It seems that alto is worse than tenor from my sampling.
 

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Not a fortune but the fetch a pretty good price. usually under two hundred. Ive picked them up for well under.

tonalin tends to sell for a bit more...even thought it has more of a tendency to crack.

The old HR versions sell for more.

As for the bad rap...there are some horrible examples out there. It seems that alto is worse than tenor from my sampling.

1. Please verify this assertion:
"The material used to make tonalin and ebolin is identical but for the color and the cracking problem is, too. The dark coloration added to the ebolin does not make it any stronger. But the light color of the tonalin allows the cracks on those to show."

[I am not claiming this assertion is true. I would like to hear an expert vet it.]
 

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I cant say for sure but the seem to feel different when working on them so I think ebolin is a different material...a bit more elastic. It tends to want to pull...make minute tears on sand paper than tonalin which feels more dry. Im not a plastics expert so I cant say for sure. But I think they are different which is why I have seen WAY more cracks in tonalin than in ebolin

...mojo or some other guys who are more in the area of science may have a more real information vs my assertions that come from working the material.

Ebolins do crack but less often... they seem overall less brittle to me.
 

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I don’t know much more. I read an article once where Brilhart was quoted as saying the Tonalin was made from Lucite. It was a fairly new DuPont material back then. I think the Ebolin is the same with an additive but it does seem less brittle than the Tonalin.
 

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"The color of the dye used is the only difference, the plastic compound used was identical (and contained NO rubber despite common belief) although the compounds used were changed at least twice during the earlier production runs. It's worth noting that at least 4 different companies actually manufactured the Brilhart mpcs (including both Runyon and Babbitt) and that the original tip opening markings mean absolutely nothing with regard to the true tip openings. Tonalin models were more "popular" and more of them (that I've seen) have cracked shanks from being forced onto oversize tenon corks. The Tonalin models typically command a higher price because they have been seen in some "famous" photos of Charlie Parker, Stan Getz and other prominent players. (Same with Dexter and California Dukoffs etc.) None of these "iconic" players used these Brilharts as their main mpc for any significant period. People tend to forget that Prez used Ebolin mpcs (with plastic reeds!) for all his post-WWII playing and that others such as Benny Carter used them for many years. The "difference" is in the EYES of the beholder, not their EARS, despite all the reseller's "hype" and exaggerated prices asked for Tonalin mpcs. All the plastic Brilharts (including the clear "Tonalite" models) are somewhat fragile and prone to wear easily. They can be very nice mpcs (as can so many, many others) when properly finished but are certainly not intrinsically worth the prices asked for them by resellers here on SOTW and often paid by gullible buyers." Ol' Mpc Doc
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?18753-Ebolin-vs-Tonalin
 

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Maybe so but I can tell you that when you work on them they feel completely different.

Im not saying they should be worth less money. I think they play just as well if you get a good one or have it adjusted.

But I am saying the materials behave significantly different.

Oh...and Im not inclined to believe that one plastic sounds better than the next (within reason).
 

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Maybe so but I can tell you that when you work on them they feel completely different.

Im not saying they should be worth less money. I think they play just as well if you get a good one or have it adjusted.

But I am saying the materials behave significantly different.

Oh...and Im not inclined to believe that one plastic sounds better than the next (within reason).

I think you are exactly correct. One explanation quoted below was that the coloring materials did make a difference in the final product in terms of cracking, brittleness, strength, or whatever it is that seems to make the tonalin have more shank cracking. So "same material" just means before lamp black was added to one bucket and titanium oxide to the other bucket.

"The differance in color is due to the different pigments. The black ones used carbon black (or lamp balack), a relatiivly light pigmant that has some reinforcing properties, thats why its used in tires. The white ones use a white pigment, most likely a mixture but almost certanly containing some titanium dioxide, which is very heavy and does not reinforec plasitcs and rubber like carbon black does. That would explain the Tonalins cracking more." frankbiff
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?18753-Ebolin-vs-Tonalin
 

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Whatever the reason I can tell you this...in addition to refacing behavior, I can take my fingernail and make a line in Ebolin
I cant with Tonanalin...Your explanation for the difference due to carbon black is as good as any I might have.
I dont think anyone here knows for a fact if they begin with the same plastic before additive. Im still in doubt of this BUT it is doubt without real evidence.
Babbitt makes Ebolins for the Conn-Selmer company. They might know. I may give them a buzz just for giggles.

Edit: Ok, email sent to my contacts at Babbitt. We will see if ebolins even begin with the same base material (if in fact Lucite is correct)...and if In fact they know the make up of Tonalin.

stay tuned for this now off thread topic discussion.
 

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None of these "iconic" players used these Brilharts as their main mpc for any significant period. People tend to forget that Prez used Ebolin mpcs (with plastic reeds!) for all his post-WWII playing and that others such as Benny Carter used them for many years.[/url]
Brew Moore and Paul Quinichette played a Tonalin for the larger part of there musical career. Stan Getz actually played and recorded with a Tonalin in the early 50s. As did Gene Ammons who later switched to an Ebolin.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
...this is good stuff, forget the friggin' white stripe
 

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Forget the brilhart plastic! Let's talk about the Pragmatic Sanction!

The Pragmatic Sanction (Latin: Sanctio Pragmatica) was an edict issued by Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, on 19 April 1713 to ensure that the Habsburg hereditary possessions, which included the Archduchy of Austria, the Kingdom of Hungary, the Kingdom of Croatia, the Kingdom of Bohemia, the Duchy of Milan, the Kingdom of Naples, the Kingdom of Sardinia and the Austrian Netherlands, could be inherited by a daughter.

Charles and his wife Elizabeth Christine had not, to that point, had children and since 1711 Charles had been the sole surviving male member of the House of Habsburg. Charles' elder brother Joseph I had died without male issue, leaving Joseph's daughter Maria Josepha as the heir presumptive. This presented two problems. First, a prior agreement with his brother known as the Mutual Pact of Succession (1703) had agreed that, in the absence of male heirs, Joseph's daughters would take precedence over Charles's daughters in all Habsburg lands. Though at that time Charles had no children, if he were to be survived by daughters alone, they would be cut out of the inheritance. Secondly, because Salic law precluded female inheritance, Charles VI needed to take extraordinary measures to avoid a protracted succession dispute as other claimants would have surely contested a female inheritance.[1]

Charles VI was indeed ultimately succeeded by his own elder daughter Maria Theresa (born 1717). However, despite the promulgation of the Pragmatic Sanction, her accession in 1740 resulted in the outbreak of the War of the Austrian Succession as Charles-Albert of Bavaria, backed by France, contested her inheritance. Following the war, Maria Theresa's inheritance of the Habsburg lands was confirmed by the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle, while the election of her husband Francis I as Holy Roman Emperor was secured by the Treaty of Füssen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_1713
 

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Phil aren't some of those old ebolin mpcs worth a fortune these days ??

However that may be, I would put in a plug for Philtone's reworking of a modern Ebolin to the proper specifications.
He did one for me and it knocked my Links out of the ring.
Modern Ebolins are a wonderful bargain as blanks (or at least they are if you give them to Phil).
 

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Cash,
I have a super rare Lakey tenor here, if you're interested. Its the vintage Symphony model with a very unique design for the Lakeys.
Its a powerful player with body!...also unique for Lakeys. :)

I bet you would dig this piece. I think its an 8 tip.

All the best, Mark
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Forget the brilhart plastic! Let's talk about the Pragmatic Sanction!

The Pragmatic Sanction (Latin: Sanctio Pragmatica) was an edict issued by Charles VI, Holy Roman Emperor, on 19 April 1713 to ensure that the Habsburg hereditary possessions, which included the Archduchy of Austria, the Kingdom of Hungary, the Kingdom of Croatia, the Kingdom of Bohemia, the Duchy of Milan, the Kingdom of Naples, the Kingdom of Sardinia and the Austrian Netherlands, could be inherited by a daughter.

Charles and his wife Elizabeth Christine had not, to that point, had children and since 1711 Charles had been the sole surviving male member of the House of Habsburg. Charles' elder brother Joseph I had died without male issue, leaving Joseph's daughter Maria Josepha as the heir presumptive. This presented two problems. First, a prior agreement with his brother known as the Mutual Pact of Succession (1703) had agreed that, in the absence of male heirs, Joseph's daughters would take precedence over Charles's daughters in all Habsburg lands. Though at that time Charles had no children, if he were to be survived by daughters alone, they would be cut out of the inheritance. Secondly, because Salic law precluded female inheritance, Charles VI needed to take extraordinary measures to avoid a protracted succession dispute as other claimants would have surely contested a female inheritance.[1]

Charles VI was indeed ultimately succeeded by his own elder daughter Maria Theresa (born 1717). However, despite the promulgation of the Pragmatic Sanction, her accession in 1740 resulted in the outbreak of the War of the Austrian Succession as Charles-Albert of Bavaria, backed by France, contested her inheritance. Following the war, Maria Theresa's inheritance of the Habsburg lands was confirmed by the Treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle, while the election of her husband Francis I as Holy Roman Emperor was secured by the Treaty of Füssen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragmatic_Sanction_of_1713
Damn I always wondered about this..

but maybe time we go back to the white stripe on the mpc..maybe mark will show a pic of the "Symphony" model ??
 

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Cash,
I have a super rare Lakey tenor here, if you're interested. Its the vintage Symphony model with a very unique design for the Lakeys.
Its a powerful player with body!...also unique for Lakeys. :)
Does it have a single stripe without the crosshatch? I go back to the early ‘80s with pieces straight from Claude - and all those had the crosshatch. In what era was the Symphony produced?
 

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The Symphony models are late 60's, Ive been told.
It has a thin cross-hatch section at the bottom. It was designed for the symphony players , so its nicely in tune and has more body to the sound than the later Lakeys. Its also got a dip in the baffle.
Ive got matching tenor and alto Symphony models here. Nice pieces.
 
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