[simso]

Hey guys and gals,
Im finding on a lot of student model clarinets, especially the older ones like the bundys ect that some keys just dont provide the right coverage, and they never will, either the placement of the posts was incorrect to start or the keys were not long enough to provide good tone hole coverage, and no there not simply bent ect. Whats everyone elses approach to fixing this, the keys Im assuming would be cast, so heating and stretching would be out of the question, removing the posts redrilling ect is uneconomical. The pads are sealling but only just.
Ideas, suggestions

Thanks
Steve

 

[jbtsax]

Are you using pads that fit completely into the key cup or do they have a "shoulder" that extends the the pad slightly over the rim of the cup?

I have worked on literally hundreds of plastic student clarinets including Bundys and have never experienced the problem you are describing.

John

 

[bandmommy]

I've done a butt load of student clarinets. Some so bad they should have trashed or turned into lamps. I've never had a problem with pads 'just covering' the tone hole.
Are you sure you're using the correct size/type pads?

 

[JerryJamz2]

I agree wiht John and bandmommy. Bundy clarinets are one of the few instruments which were made very well compared to others, and IMO even if you were using a pad which is slightly smaller than normal, key cup alignment over the toneholes is/was never a problem. Matter of fact, of all the student clarinets made in the last 4 decades, Bundy and Vito are perhaps the most common and the best made production clarinets. That's why they are still around. As far as Selmer/Bundy goes, I prefer those older ones to the newer ones. There are however many other manufacturers of clarinets which your concerns and frustrations are valid.

 

[hornfixer]

I use a 17mm. pad, 12mm, and 10 1/2mm.

 

[Chris Peryagh]

Im finding on a lot of student model clarinets, especially the older ones like the bundys ect that some keys just dont provide the right coverage, and they never will, either the placement of the posts was incorrect to start or the keys were not long enough to provide good tone hole coverage, and no there not simply bent ect. Whats everyone elses approach to fixing this, the keys Im assuming would be cast, so heating and stretching would be out of the question, removing the posts redrilling ect is uneconomical.

The key pieces (mainly touchpieces and larger metal parts, not key cups or arms which are stamped) on Bundys may be cast, but they are cast in nickel silver and not mazak, but heating and stretching won't do the job.

It depends on how the pad cups have been mounted on the key arms, the angle of the key cups in relation to the toneholes or the bend in the key arms that can determine how well a pad covers the tonehole, and also the thickness of the pads used. Ideally you want to see an equal amount of pad showing all around the pad cup, and the tonehole bedplace concentric with the pad making a concentric impression in the pad face when seated. But as it's not a perfect world, compromises have to be made. You can spend time bending keys around to achieve the prefect set (which is when an equal amount of pad sidewall shows and the pad is seating), but on a lot of clarinets - even top pro models - this is almost impossible.

The best student clarinet I have worked on which is a text book example is my old plastic Yamaha YCL-24 - pad cups and toneholes line up perfectly, equal pad sets all round and rings that sit even with the tonehole chimneys in both height and concentricity. And that was on a plastic student model, and an example a lot of makers should follow.

 

[tictactux]

I agree with John and bandmommy.

Same here. I don't even need shouldered pads, I often can indulge in using slightly tapered ones (to reduce the hiss).
The only thing that occasionally is slightly out of whack is that cup and tonehole don't perfectly line up sideways, but this is easily corrected by bending the key back. Length never was a problem.

 

[RootyTootoot]

I'm sorry, guys, but i just find the title of this thread so hilarious I keep checking the responses and i'm going to have to barge in and make a comment anyhow. All you knowledgeable and helpful people willjust have to forgive me.

The story so far: Steve is sat eating his morning clarinet pads and considering a question for SOTW. Thinks "Hmmm.. Now I've got my question but what shall I call it?" [inspiration strikes] "I know!! Howzabout GORDON, in honour of that well known SOTW NZ woodwind tech fella!! Just the ticket!! I hereby christen my question "gordon"!!

sorry Steve. you can take a free shot back if you like.

 

[hornfixer]

I hereby christen my question "gordon"!!

Thats a good question.

 

[simso]

Mmm okay, yes this has nothing to do with pad sizing fitment ect, with no pads fitted, some of these keys that Ive seen lately dont even come close to reaching far enough across to cover the tone hole correctly, and it appears that theyve been like this since manufacture.
Yes with a pad fitted they can correctly seal the hole enough I guess that someone who wasnt really paying a lot of attention wouldnt even notice.
Im surprised that I appear to be the only one that has found this problem, as such it is more than possible that it could be something Im doing but I find that a bit hard to believe in this instance because we are simply dealing with the mechanical action and physical properties of the key.
I would have repaired now close to 300 plus clarinets
Im glad the title has humoured people, it was intended to be read as "clarinet repair question" looking for feedback from gordon especially as I highly regard his opnion in these matters, I know I leave myself open for sarcasm and critisism in some comments, but the knowledge and wisdom gained in matters like this is worth it

As a summary then, no one to date has really found this to be a problem. This really really surpirsises me, I may be to picky about where the cup sits in relation to the hole, or I might be seeing some units that have had replacement keys fitted which dont quite fit properly. I guess Ill go to my scrap box of parts todays, grab some keys and try different ways of lengthening them.

Thanks
Steve

 

[Dr G]

Might you post some pictures of the worst offenders?

 

[Simon Weiner]

Might you post some pictures of the worst offenders?

Then we will know the correct punishment for such behavior.

 

[Dr G]

'xactly!

 

[simso]

Okay heres an example of one thats to long, this is in todays workload exact opposite of what Im talking about, yes it does seal, but come on this is either crap manufacturing or someone has changed the key sometime in its previous life, either way Ive now got to fix it. As far as one to short Ive got to go through the bins of **** Ive got to find one thats to short, I try to repair the customers units to the best I can, up until now Ive been swapping keys with a scrap unit. Hence the need for working out a fix
And yes it misaligns without a pad fitted and yes all other parts of the keywork are in good perfect condition

Steve

 

[tictactux]

Okay heres an example of one thats to long, this is in todays workload exact opposite of what Im talking about, yes it does seal, but come on this is either crap manufacturing or someone has changed the key sometime in its previous life, either way Ive now got to fix it. As far as one to short Ive got to go through the bins of **** Ive got to find one thats to short, I try to repair the customers units to the best I can, up until now Ive been swapping keys with a scrap unit. Hence the need for working out a fix
And yes it misaligns without a pad fitted and yes all other parts of the keywork are in good perfect condition

Steve

That is a Bundy Alto, correct?

 

[JerryJamz2]

That is a Bundy Alto, correct?

That or a Bundy bass clarinet, one of the two for sure. It looks like one of the 60's models which had the logo on a model airplane type decal. First time you cleaned it, the logo was gonzo.

 

[simso]

Yes bundy alto, this is just an example of what Im talking about but the opposite way, Ive contacted the customer and Ill get them to peruse before I modify. Now its the correct key, it has the exact same profile layout, the ends havent been modified to fit like you would find when fitting an aftermarket key ect. The customer saids theyve had this unit since new, it originally belonged to there grandfather, now the key seals, but its crap.
Would you not agree, whats everyones suggestions, since not many have seen this sort of stuff it surprises me that I see so many, Im assuming that majority of people just let this go, the old saying well it seals so that'll do
Steve

 

[tictactux]

Yes bundy alto, this is just an example of what Im talking about but the opposite way, Ive contacted the customer and Ill get them to peruse before I modify. Now its the correct key, it has the exact same profile layout, the ends havent been modified to fit like you would find when fitting an aftermarket key ect. The customer saids theyve had this unit since new, it originally belonged to there grandfather, now the key seals, but its crap.
Would you not agree, whats everyones suggestions, since not many have seen this sort of stuff it surprises me that I see so many, Im assuming that majority of people just let this go, the old saying well it seals so that'll do
Steve

I checked my own Bundy Alto, and the register key isn't aligned 100% either, but the hex nut around the register tube is far bigger than the hole and you shouldn't have a problem keeping the whole gizmo tight. (I presume the rod is straight, not bent).
I have only that one Alto to compare, but on all the Bundy sopranos I've never seen that. So it might be a manufacturing glitch, and the Bundy is a "serviceable" student instrument, hardly a great one. (doesn't mean I can't have tons of fun with it)
If I were in your situation, I'd once lower my standards re key placement and concentrate on getting the register mechanism to work optimally.
(The easier way would IMHO be to move the register hole sideways, not to shorten the key.)

 

[simso]

Thanks ben, yes it does seal, but case and point to what Im talking about, I have 6 bundy altos waiting to be serviced for monday, the rest of them for the register keys are pretty good, I can swap keys to find out if its the key or register hole placement. But the fact is Its still got to be fixed.
Everyone lets it go because obviously there is to much work required to fix it, but as always it would seal so much better if it was perfectly aligned, I just see so many keys that arent right, and yes they seal but only through a bit of additional tweaking, and even then I reckon if you put something like a mag machine on them they would fail miserably
Dont get me started on the ell cheaapo 100 buck brand new units, I did a couple and now I just wont touch them, there is just way to much work required to get them playing nice and they arent even a couple of years old.
Like I said Im only new to the repair industry and am still trying to work out what you can and cant do, but I would love to know how to be able to lengthen a key and or shorten as required.Dont know if you cut a key and then rebraze it whether it can take the punishment ect, ican you weld repair them ect ect


Thanks\Steve

 

[tictactux]

Thanks ben, yes it does seal, but case and point to what Im talking about, I have 6 bundy altos waiting to be serviced for monday, the rest of them for the register keys are pretty good, I can swap keys to find out if its the key or register hole placement. But the fact is Its still got to be fixed.

Sure, but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. For some reason a Bundy is cheaper than a Buffet. And that's not only because they might take cheaper pads.

Everyone lets it go because obviously there is to much work required to fix it, but as always it would seal so much better if it was perfectly aligned,

I disagree somewhat. As long as enough "meat" is covering a hole, it can be made tight, and fine tight at that. Sure, you can saw, shorten and re-solder the key arm. It might look better but it still can't be more than "tight". I think that part of the art in repairing is to decide where an extra effort is justified and where it's just lipstick on a pig. If you make the keywork behave in a way that the customer just has to think about what key to press and the horn more or less does it by itself, then you're an artist. Merely shorting keys to make them look perfect just makes you a plumber or a cosmetologist.

Dont get me started on the ell cheaapo 100 buck brand new units

No I don't.

Like I said Im only new to the repair industry and am still trying to work out what you can and cant do

Constantly ask yourself: What is need to have and what is nice to have, especially under certain budget restrictions. Start with the need to have's. I as a customer would prefer a perfectly regulated keywork over a cosmetically beautiful one. I agree, it's annoying to have issues like these, but why take a big risk where little is to be gained?