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I really need to learn how to read the circle of fifths... i know i really should kno this, but i dont, sooo can some one plz explain like wat it means to play 2 steps down from G or w/e it is
pllllzz help!
pllllzz help!
Circle of Fifths
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Why do you know that you should know it? Because "they" say so, or because you think it will help your understanding of key relationships, chord progressions and a number of other related things?
If your answer is the second one, get to it. Here's a useful link: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory9.htm#circlefifths
If your answer is the second one, get to it. Here's a useful link: http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory9.htm#circlefifths
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
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That is a good link, but also there is page on my jazz theory section:
http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-cycle-of-5ths.html
If you go there, it would be best to start at the very beginners page. (jazz beginners I and II)
Your question about the 2 steps down sound like you have some confused info from someone, but could be to do with this:
When you cycle through 5ths (as you will discover from thos links) and start at e.g. G, you go down 5 notes from G (= GFEDC) so a 5th from G is C. To continue round the cycle you go 5 notes down from C (=CBAGF) and end up on F.
Now in jazz its very common for a sequence to include what are called II-V-!s (you'll learn what that means on those jazz beginners pages). This is basically a series of 3 chords (=chord progression) that is a short section of the cycle of 5ths so in the key of F it would go: Gm7-C7-F. From start to finish you will notice the roots have gone down 1 whole tone from G to F , i.e. 2 semitones. I believe this might be what you are referring to as the "two steps down".
That's a very simplistic explanation - the store gets more complicated so you will need to start at the beginning and take everything in slowly. Good luck.
http://www.petethomas.co.uk/jazz-cycle-of-5ths.html
If you go there, it would be best to start at the very beginners page. (jazz beginners I and II)
Your question about the 2 steps down sound like you have some confused info from someone, but could be to do with this:
When you cycle through 5ths (as you will discover from thos links) and start at e.g. G, you go down 5 notes from G (= GFEDC) so a 5th from G is C. To continue round the cycle you go 5 notes down from C (=CBAGF) and end up on F.
Now in jazz its very common for a sequence to include what are called II-V-!s (you'll learn what that means on those jazz beginners pages). This is basically a series of 3 chords (=chord progression) that is a short section of the cycle of 5ths so in the key of F it would go: Gm7-C7-F. From start to finish you will notice the roots have gone down 1 whole tone from G to F , i.e. 2 semitones. I believe this might be what you are referring to as the "two steps down".
That's a very simplistic explanation - the store gets more complicated so you will need to start at the beginning and take everything in slowly. Good luck.
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To answer your question (which doesn't seem to have been addressed here except to refer you elsewhere), the circle of fifths means that each scale in the circle has one more sharp (or flat) that the previous. If you are playing the "sharp" circle of fifths, each new scale is a fifth above the previous and contains one additional sharp note.
e.g. C, G (#), D(##), A(###), E(####) etc.
In playing the "flat" circle of fifths the approach is essentially the same except that ordinarily you think in terms of lowering notes a half-step so you DESCEND a fifth to the scale with an additional flat.
e.g. C, F(b), Bb (bb), Eb (bbb), Ab(bbbb) etc.
Another way to look at the circle of (flat) fifths is to ASCEND four degrees to the scale that contains one additional flatted note. It works in either direction.
e.g. C, F(b), Bb(bb) etc.
In approaching the "sharp" circle of fifths descending you go down four degrees to the scale which has one additional sharp. E.G. C, (down four degrees to) G(#), etc.
That's really all there is to it.
ATJ
e.g. C, G (#), D(##), A(###), E(####) etc.
In playing the "flat" circle of fifths the approach is essentially the same except that ordinarily you think in terms of lowering notes a half-step so you DESCEND a fifth to the scale with an additional flat.
e.g. C, F(b), Bb (bb), Eb (bbb), Ab(bbbb) etc.
Another way to look at the circle of (flat) fifths is to ASCEND four degrees to the scale that contains one additional flatted note. It works in either direction.
e.g. C, F(b), Bb(bb) etc.
In approaching the "sharp" circle of fifths descending you go down four degrees to the scale which has one additional sharp. E.G. C, (down four degrees to) G(#), etc.
That's really all there is to it.
ATJ
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
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Although that is really a circle of 4ths.Allthatjazz said:
EDIT:
Circle of 5ths is basically root movement down a 5th, irrespective of sharps or flats.
D - G - C
F - Bb - Eb
Ab - Db - Gb (F#)
B - E - A
Which brings us back to D. (and note how each group of 3 ends a whole tone (or two semitones) lower than it starts, which I believe is back to the original question.
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The whole idea of the circle of fifths is that it be useful to music students (and musicians!) as a tool to understand that by adding additional raised or lowered notes as one progresses through the "circle", the intervals of each scale remain constant and give order to musical notation and to the sound of the scales. The fact that it becomes a "circle of fourths" in the other direction only demonstrates that it is orderly in that direction as well. And the "root movement" as you call it, is certainly not "irrespective of sharps and flats" - the progressive addition of sharps (or flats) is the sine qua non through which all the scales have the same intervalic structure.Pete Thomas said:
It is also helpful to students who are learning the scales in a progressive way that each added sharp is a fifth higher than the one in the previous scale. The circle of fifths is not about nit-picking esoteric discussions but instead, is a valuable and practical tool for every musician.
ATJ
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Yes, the circle can go in both directions, and whether your call it 4ths or 5ths doesn't really matter. BUT the harmonic movement of most Western music moves in the direction that Pete Thomas mentioned (you're much more likely to see a root progression of D-G-C than the other way).Allthatjazz said:
So, far from mere theoretical nitpicking, if you're going to practice things through the cycle of fifths, it will be of more practical value to practice in the D-G-C direction. As in the bridge of "I Got Rhythm."
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I'm sorry but what you all seem to be describing is not the circle of fifths, which has been defined above. The circle of fifths does not exist to offer a key or to illustrate chord progressions - like Dm7, G7, Cmaj. Just as one proof, the Dm scale from which the Dm7 is derived, doesn't even contain an F# but an F natural.
I persist in my view that the circle of fifths is an aid to scale study and is an explanation and illustration of how raising certain notes of major scales, if done in an orderly way, allow us to view all the key signatures as a "circle", wherein by adding a new sharp note to each scale in a prescribed manner, it will take us around the so-called circle and back to where we started; a scale with no sharps (or flats), namely C.
And I commented that, looked at in the other direction, adding a flat to each new scale as one descends in order to keep all scale intervals constant, another circle exists, called the circle of flats. It is just as useful as the circle of sharps inasmuch as it allows us to understand how all the flat key signatures are obtained and how they relate.
I persist in my view that the circle of fifths is an aid to scale study and is an explanation and illustration of how raising certain notes of major scales, if done in an orderly way, allow us to view all the key signatures as a "circle", wherein by adding a new sharp note to each scale in a prescribed manner, it will take us around the so-called circle and back to where we started; a scale with no sharps (or flats), namely C.
And I commented that, looked at in the other direction, adding a flat to each new scale as one descends in order to keep all scale intervals constant, another circle exists, called the circle of flats. It is just as useful as the circle of sharps inasmuch as it allows us to understand how all the flat key signatures are obtained and how they relate.
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Well, I'm sorry too. 
The Circle of Fifths is merely what it seems: a relationship between keys who are a fifth apart. People can apply it in many way but the application does not define what it is, only reflects how some might use it.
It reflects the practice in Western European music of the tonal movement from one key to another by root relationship of a fifth. Coexisting with that is that the closely related keys have six of the seven tones in common with one another as you go around the circle. I'm not certain, but believe this relationship of close to distant related keys also is a holdover from the non-tempered era when you could get away with modulations to closely related keys but the more distant modulations would sound horrible.
My personal belief is that this relationship is also reflected in nature when you realise that the overtone series is built, sequentially, first on a fifth, then a fourth, etc.
Taking it one step further, most improvising musicians in our tradition use the circle to organise practicing scales and chord progressions since the root movement of 4ths/5ths is the most common.
At any rate, I think some are confusing what the Circle of Fifths is, with how some use them and that's not always the same thing.
The Circle of Fifths is merely what it seems: a relationship between keys who are a fifth apart. People can apply it in many way but the application does not define what it is, only reflects how some might use it.It reflects the practice in Western European music of the tonal movement from one key to another by root relationship of a fifth. Coexisting with that is that the closely related keys have six of the seven tones in common with one another as you go around the circle. I'm not certain, but believe this relationship of close to distant related keys also is a holdover from the non-tempered era when you could get away with modulations to closely related keys but the more distant modulations would sound horrible.
My personal belief is that this relationship is also reflected in nature when you realise that the overtone series is built, sequentially, first on a fifth, then a fourth, etc.
Taking it one step further, most improvising musicians in our tradition use the circle to organise practicing scales and chord progressions since the root movement of 4ths/5ths is the most common.
At any rate, I think some are confusing what the Circle of Fifths is, with how some use them and that's not always the same thing.
"2 step down from G" to me indicates someone is telling you about transposing to either another key or to another note. By moving down 2 steps from G you would be playing E or Eb, depending on whether the key is G major or G minor. This interval is a minor 3rd. We're now learning about intervals rather than root movements found in the "Circle of Fifths."
Some nice links given by other posters, though, for learning about chords and chord progressions.
Some nice links given by other posters, though, for learning about chords and chord progressions.
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Whenever we get together to discuss it, the drummer calls us the "circle of jerks."
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THANKYOU!!!
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Here is another website for music theory SO MUCH GOOD stuff it aims to be like khan academy
Dave Conservatoire | The world's free music school
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Here is another website for music theory SO MUCH GOOD stuff it aims to be like khan academy
Dave Conservatoire | The world's free music school
Dave Conservatoire | The world's free music school
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There is a ton of stuff on YouTube that will be helpful. It is really pretty simple. Moving around the circle adds a sharp each time or, in the other direction, a flat each time.
In addition to what has been said above, the keys closest to each other in the circle have the most notes in common. Those farther apart have less notes in common. This is what makes Giant Steps hard: It is fundamentally a cycle of major thirds, which looks like a triangle on the circle of fifths. Each jump to a new key moves to a very different key on the circle.
It is interesting that most common progressions, like the iii-VI7-ii-V7-I, are movements around the circle, but they are diatonic (within the key) movements. The key does not change with each new chord; it is a movement within the same key. The scale notes don't change (in the simplest form).
In addition to what has been said above, the keys closest to each other in the circle have the most notes in common. Those farther apart have less notes in common. This is what makes Giant Steps hard: It is fundamentally a cycle of major thirds, which looks like a triangle on the circle of fifths. Each jump to a new key moves to a very different key on the circle.
It is interesting that most common progressions, like the iii-VI7-ii-V7-I, are movements around the circle, but they are diatonic (within the key) movements. The key does not change with each new chord; it is a movement within the same key. The scale notes don't change (in the simplest form).
Here's something that I recently discovered about the circle that blew my mind. The end result is you only need to know half of the circle (the flat side).
Consider the key of Bb. Two notes are flat - B and E. Now raise it half a step to B natural, which is the opposite side of the circle. When you raise every note in the Bb scale half a step, the naturals become sharps and the flats become naturals. So all notes in the B scale are sharp EXCEPT for B and E, which are natural. That's the same notes that are flat in Bb.
Another example, Ab. Four notes are flat - B E A D. Raise half a step to A. All notes are sharp except B E A D.
Bottom line, the flats in flat keys follow the pattern BEADGCF, and the naturals in sharp keys follow the same exact pattern BEADGCF. Traditionally, you'd follow the circle in the reverse direction, making the order of sharps FCGDAEB,
To me, keys with lots of sharps are easier to think of as EVERY note being sharp EXCEPT a short list of natural notes.
Consider the key of Bb. Two notes are flat - B and E. Now raise it half a step to B natural, which is the opposite side of the circle. When you raise every note in the Bb scale half a step, the naturals become sharps and the flats become naturals. So all notes in the B scale are sharp EXCEPT for B and E, which are natural. That's the same notes that are flat in Bb.
Another example, Ab. Four notes are flat - B E A D. Raise half a step to A. All notes are sharp except B E A D.
Bottom line, the flats in flat keys follow the pattern BEADGCF, and the naturals in sharp keys follow the same exact pattern BEADGCF. Traditionally, you'd follow the circle in the reverse direction, making the order of sharps FCGDAEB,
To me, keys with lots of sharps are easier to think of as EVERY note being sharp EXCEPT a short list of natural notes.
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This thread seems to have jumped from 2007 to 2021, and OP is not involved in the new part. But the thread raises a question in my mind. Hopefully some of you can shed some light from a teaching perspective.
With a question of “learning” the circle of fifths there seems to be good discussion on what it is and how it can be used. Some of the links of course have the picture of the circle. But as far as how it is learned- is there a reason discussions focus on how it is structured rather than 1st putting it visually in our head? In other words, is there some drawback to using the mnemonic that is a logical sentence each direction (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle and adding F#ather C#harles and the reverse Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles’ Father).
Then telling someone to get a piece of paper and draw a clock face with “C” at the top with no sharps or flats and fill out the clock face using the pneumonic adding sharps incrementally clockwise and flats incrementally anti-clockwise. Then for the minor shift the shaps and flats 3 hours to the right for Amin no sharps and flat.
Write the majors on the outside of the clock rim and the minors on the inside of the clock rim.
And within a day, most anyone can write the entire circle of fifths with no assistance and have this mental picture in their head to frame these discussions.
These mental pictures seem to help me but I rarely see these “cheats” or mnemonics discussed which makes me wonder - is there some thinking that this actually impedes more effective understanding and application? Or, is the assumption that anyone asking these questions has already reached this point, however they do, that they already have this mental picture or framework in place?
I am having fun learning theory that I slacked in years ago even if it is sometimes a bit of a slow process. Whenever I see these discussions, I wonder this.
With a question of “learning” the circle of fifths there seems to be good discussion on what it is and how it can be used. Some of the links of course have the picture of the circle. But as far as how it is learned- is there a reason discussions focus on how it is structured rather than 1st putting it visually in our head? In other words, is there some drawback to using the mnemonic that is a logical sentence each direction (Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle and adding F#ather C#harles and the reverse Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles’ Father).
Then telling someone to get a piece of paper and draw a clock face with “C” at the top with no sharps or flats and fill out the clock face using the pneumonic adding sharps incrementally clockwise and flats incrementally anti-clockwise. Then for the minor shift the shaps and flats 3 hours to the right for Amin no sharps and flat.
Write the majors on the outside of the clock rim and the minors on the inside of the clock rim.
And within a day, most anyone can write the entire circle of fifths with no assistance and have this mental picture in their head to frame these discussions.
These mental pictures seem to help me but I rarely see these “cheats” or mnemonics discussed which makes me wonder - is there some thinking that this actually impedes more effective understanding and application? Or, is the assumption that anyone asking these questions has already reached this point, however they do, that they already have this mental picture or framework in place?
I am having fun learning theory that I slacked in years ago even if it is sometimes a bit of a slow process. Whenever I see these discussions, I wonder this.
One thing to consider is that a huge, huge proportion of harmonic movements in popular music are derived from movements around the circle of fifths (or, in the other direction, the circle of fourths).
One of the most stereotyped sequences is where you start off with 1 - 4 or 1 -5 movements (adjacent on circle) and then either go UP a major third and round the circle: 1-3-6-2-5-and back to-1; or DOWN a minor third and round: 1-6-2-5-1. In fact, a lot of times in jam circles a tune is described just that way as "it's just three chords and then we go up a third and round the circle back home". With some degree of experience that's enough description to follow. Of course Rhythm Changes are another variant of this and the bridge is exactly that "up a third and round the circle back home".
Once you internalize circle-of-fifths movements (which as I note are almost always actually movements of a fourth) in most keys, recognizing and picking up chord progressions becomes tremendously easier. ( a ii-V7-I is a version of a circle of fifths movement.) I'd guess that something like 95% of popular music is completely or largely based on circle of fifths movements and the blues progressions.
One of the most stereotyped sequences is where you start off with 1 - 4 or 1 -5 movements (adjacent on circle) and then either go UP a major third and round the circle: 1-3-6-2-5-and back to-1; or DOWN a minor third and round: 1-6-2-5-1. In fact, a lot of times in jam circles a tune is described just that way as "it's just three chords and then we go up a third and round the circle back home". With some degree of experience that's enough description to follow. Of course Rhythm Changes are another variant of this and the bridge is exactly that "up a third and round the circle back home".
Once you internalize circle-of-fifths movements (which as I note are almost always actually movements of a fourth) in most keys, recognizing and picking up chord progressions becomes tremendously easier. ( a ii-V7-I is a version of a circle of fifths movement.) I'd guess that something like 95% of popular music is completely or largely based on circle of fifths movements and the blues progressions.
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