[sikorajm]

Make this easy. Playing in the Key of C.
If using the modes in the key of C:
I C Major
II Dm
III Em
IV F
V G
VI Am
VII B dim
Question is the I C Maj, II Dm7, and V G is the C scale. Chord III Em is a D scale(??). So my question is can you play a F# and C# in a chord III progression?? or am I confused. THXXXXXXX

 

[MartinMusicMan]

This is not the answer you're looking for but I have to say that you can play any note in any progression, as long as you resolve it in relation to the chord you land on. So I can hear that I could play F# and C# as notes in an Em progression, if that's what you mean. Or do you mean playing F# and C# over an Em chord in a C progression? I can still hear how you might do that. It would be dissonant, but still workable depending on where you went with it.

 

[sikorajm]

I guess what I am saying is the chord will be E G B D which is in the key of C. Is the Em # III chord mode actually a D major scale???? The I chord is a C scale. I get that as well as the Dm7???

 

[SaxTMan]

You are confused.... the Emin7 chord are in the C scale as a III chord (frigian) and in D scale as as a II chord (dorian)... they do not have the same chord/scale... so if in a progression in C there is a progression like CMaj Emin Dmin G7, if you play C# HARMONICALLY (without resolving well) on the Emin chances are that it will cause a shock of notes... it means that the voicing could have C (the b6th) on it... so go play and check it out...

 

[sikorajm]

OK
So what you are saying that if playing a song in the key of C and you have a I-V-II progression as an example. you play I as CEGB and V as GBDF and II as EGBD. Basiclly you are playing in the Key of C. So what is the importance of the changes if you are basically in the Key of C. Why not stay in the C scale and improvise. that is what I dont understand if that makes sense. THXXXXX

 

[hgiles]

1. Any chord that is diatonic to the key, you simply just play parts of the scale. Your lines should be 'between the chord tones' however for each chord; this is why it's important to know the chord!
2. If the chord is NOT diatonic to the key then you determine which notes are not diatonic and you alter the scale accordingly. You make the notes between the chord tones diatonic to the key unless an alteration is specified.

So, if you see an E-7 in the key of C, you wouldn't generally play E Dorian, unless you were going for that particular sound. The native sound is E Phrygian or (d'uh) C Major. Chords related by a diatonic third substitute for each other so an E-7 is substituting for a C chord unless it's part of some turnaround, cycle, or modulation of some sort.

 

[Pete Thomas]

The I chord is a C scale.

No, a chord is not a scale. I think you are confused.

 

[motownsax]

So in the Em chord in Key of C either play EGBD or notes between E thru D?????

 

[motownsax]

So to keep it simple you play the chord itself or any notes between E to D. Also the major or minor Pentatonic can be substituted. Sorry for being a little confused. Just trying to get angrip on this. THXXXXXX

 

[christiansax]

When you study a tune, try to make it easier for you to play. I highly recommend that you try to find what the key center of a progression and you stick to that key unless know how to sidestep a little. Always keep in mind the II-V-I progression and try to apply it to your tune. But to answer your question, based on the info you provided, I would definitely play in the key of C, with the E-7 chord tones in mind. This way, you wouldn't loose your way scale and chord wise.

You also want to listen to how the modes ina particuar key sounds like. For example, a dorian minor sounds sad, but the the Phyrigian minor is more depressing to my ear. If you know how these modes sounds like, and depending on how you want to sound on that particular part of the song, your note choices will be much better.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[35TangoTango]

You need to think chords more than scales. The mother of all progressions ( ii7 - V7 - I ) is all diatonic (all in the key of C, or if you want to think of it that way, all on a C scale), but each chord empasized different notes, and the notes in each chord typically resolve in very standard ways.

 

[Pete Thomas]

If using the modes in the key of C:

Forget about modes, in the key C (major) jut play in the key of C major. Modes are different things entirely.

Why not stay in the C scale and improvise. that is what I dont understand if that makes sense. THXXXXX

It makes total sense. But you also need to know the chord tones. A scale of C is fine with any (diatonic) chord in the key of C. But to improvise well and melodically you don't just play a scale against a chord, to begi with try to play the play chord tones on the main beats, and non chord tones of the scale between the beats (as passing tones).

e.g. C maj 7 C D E F G A B D | C would be a scale passage that fits a C maj 7

C B A G F E D C | B is a Dm7 scale passage resolving nicely to the B of a G7 chord

F E D C B A G F | E is a G7 scale passage resolving nicely to the E of a C chord.

As you can see, these are purely C maj scales that have the chord tones of the specific chord on the beats.

You don't have to do it like that all the time, but it's a good way to start.

BTW, those nice resolutions are called voice leading and this is an important aspect of impro and composition. Yopu don't get that if you just think of scales (or modes) per chord.

I always think instead of the scale of the key. Some more complex songs go through several keys though, we think therefore of "key centres" so even though a song may start and end in a certain key (which is the key of the song), there can be several different keys that last for maybe just a couple of bars at a time. So it can get quite complex, and you need to learn about key centres.

So, if you see an E-7 in the key of C, you wouldn't generally play E Dorian, unless you were going for that particular sound.

No sir! You've hit the nail on the head there.

 

[MyMartinTenor]

Ok -- forget scales for a minute. Next, forget modes. Lets just focus on chord tones for a moment.

When you're playing any song in any key -- that's ANY song in ANY key -- and you see an Em7 chord, the CHORD TONES are E-G-B-D. If you see a Dmaj7 chord, the chord tones are ALWAYS D-F#-A-C#. It doesn't matter what the underlying tonality of the song is, or whether its the I or the III or whatever.

Memorize those first! All your major, minor, diminished, dominant, half diminished, etc. Get that theory under your fingers FIRST.

The traditionally proper scale that would match up to the chord at issue will include those chord tones -- its just adding some extra notes in between. Knowing what those "extra" notes are requires some additional learning, but the chord tones are the first step.

FORGET MODE for the time being. That's not going to be helpful to you at this point. You're confusing yourself by trying to combine mode, chords, and scales. Chords are the first step.

 

[bakkiemetkoekie]

No, the III chord is tonic function (so is I and VI) and you can play the scale of C (fromC). For instance in rhythm change you have: I VI | II V | III VI | II V | in first bar you have 2 times tonic function and also in third bar you have tonic function and you can play just the scale from C. So to make it real easy to play the first few bars, think of: I | V | I | V |.
So I ,III and VI belongs to eachother. So is II and IV (they have subdominant function). And V and VII (have dominant function). This is important to know and its important to hear music this way. To me its easier than thinking of all those names they gave to every degree of the scale.

 

[SaxTMan]

OK
So what you are saying that if playing a song in the key of C and you have a I-V-II progression as an example. you play I as CEGB and V as GBDF and II as EGBD. Basiclly you are playing in the Key of C. So what is the importance of the changes if you are basically in the Key of C. Why not stay in the C scale and improvise. that is what I dont understand if that makes sense. THXXXXX

1. POINT - The answer asked for OP as already been answered long time ago.
2. POINT - Do you already know the answer for your second question?

 

[Frank D]

No, a chord is not a scale. I think you are confused.

And as Burt Bachrach said, a House Is Not A Home.

 

[Frank D]

If you have to be this analytical about playing music, change your major to computer science or chemistry.

 

[JL]

Basiclly you are playing in the Key of C. So what is the importance of the changes if you are basically in the Key of C. Why not stay in the C scale and improvise. that is what I dont understand if that makes sense. THXXXXX

Pete answered this pretty thoroughly, but I'll add a couple of general comments that might prove helpful, hopefully.

There is a temporal aspect to music. When you play a note (what beat in which bar) is as important as which note you play. So playing a B in the key of C over the G7 chord will be different than playing that same B over the Dmi chord. That same note will sound different depending on the harmonic context.

In most cases, with unaltered chords, the most important chord tones are the 3rd and 7th. So the chord tones to emphasize or target on a G7 chord will be the B and F (3rd & 7th of G7). The important chord tones on Dm7 will be F and C. And so on.

If the tune is mostly diatonic (stays well within the key center) and you are in C major, you can 'fill in' any of the chords with notes from the C major scale, but if you just play randomly through the C major scale, there will not be any sense of chord movement. You have to emphasize and connect the important chord tones to 'sound the changes.'

p.s. Going back to what MMM said in an earlier post, you can also 'fill in' or connect chord tones with any of the 12 notes of the chromatic scale, but that gets a bit more complicated because you have to use the chromatic tones (notes outside the scale) as passing tones, usually playing them on upbeats.

 

[Pete Thomas]

When you play a note (what beat in which bar) is as important as which note you play. So playing a B in the key of C over the G7 chord will be different than playing that same B over the Dmi chord. That same note will sound different depending on the harmonic context.

A very good and concise way to articulate what is wrong with purely learning scales (or modes) that "fit" the chord.

 

[skeller047]

A very good and concise way to articulate what is wrong with purely learning scales (or modes) that "fit" the chord.

Another way of putting this, and what I used to tell my students, is you want the melody to do the same thing as the harmony - that is, start, increase tension, release tension.

There are a gazillion ways of doing this, but one of the most basic ways is to follow what happens to the 3rd and 7th of the chords in the progression, moving each to the nearest 3rd and 7th of the next chord. So, for ii-V-I in C major, it's F + C (Dm7) to F + B (G7) to E + B (Cmaj7). Once you get that in your ear, and can use these basic motions to help define an improvised line, move on to other more esoteric ideas.

I also find the concept of Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant harmony useful. The basic concept is that any chord without the 4th scale degree is Tonic, any chord with both root and 4th scale degree is subdominant, and any chord without the root and with the 4th scale degree is dominant.

So Tonic chords are I, III and VI, Subdominant are II and IV and Dominant are V and VII. And the famous II-V-I progression goes from Subdominant to Dominant to Tonic. Another way to look at it is tension to more tension to release.

Both of these concepts, 3rd and 7th movement (aka "Guide Tones") and Tonic/Subdominant/Dominant harmony are capable of leading one through a rich forest of melodic and harmonic possibilities.

Which is why I agree with everything Pete has ever said about the concept of learning "chord scales" and why it isn't really very useful.