[hnthere]

Based on a sample size of one of each hardness (from Vandoren jazz samplers), I'm trying to choose between buying a box of #2.5 or of #3 V16 reeds. The #3 is a little too hard for me - I can't play it much beyond 20 minutes - but it sounds great. The 2.5 is easy to play, but never achieves the sound I can get out of the #3 for 15-20 minutes. Again, all based on a sample of one of each.

What should a somewhat advanced, but older beginner do if I have no interest in buying boxes of both? Should I challenge myself with the harder reeds and try to grow into them (hoping the one I have isn't unusually soft) or should I play it safe and go with the softer reeds that I might not like as much? Or should I buy some singles on eBay and postpone the big decision regarding a full box? I've read that the origin of those singles can be questionable.

 

[saxoclese]

In my experience when I am practicing regularly every day my embouchure muscles become stronger so I am able to play on the next higher 1/2 strength reed for longer periods of time. I am constantly going back and forth between Rico Classic #3 and #3 1/2 on alto playing on a classical mouthpiece. I have a box of each at any given time since I don't practice regularly unless I have a gig or performance coming up.

 

[Grumps]

Based on a sample size of one of each...

Reeds can vary greatly, and yeah... that's too small a sample size. I switched to #3 reeds on all my horns years ago. They seem to be right in the middle, and if they vary a bit either way, it's within my comfort zone. That said, since you liked the sound of that 3 compared to the 2 1/2, I'd take a chance on a box of 3 reeds. They might not all take that extra effort... and hey, if they do, playing more of them will get you used to them in no time.

 

[Reet McVouty]

For me it's the sound. I've been buying 3's lately (a few different brands) to try and help facilitate playing overtones and also even out those notes at the top of the horn. However, they also seem to darken my tone a little more than I prefer. I'm probably gonna go back to the 2-1/2's and chalk up the #3's as being a failed experiment.

 

[1saxman]

If you can play a VD 3 (pretty hard as 3s go) for 20 minutes and love the sound, go with it. Start each practice with 5 minutes of long tones. During the session, when your embouchure starts to give out, stop and stretch it by doing a big yawn while pulling the jaw down and in. Only hold it for 2 or 3 seconds. You can do this as much as you want and it instantly recharges the embouchure. It won't be long and you'll have 'lockjaw' chops.

 

[milandro]

........Should I challenge myself with the harder reeds and try to grow into them (hoping the one I have isn't unusually soft) or should I play it safe and go with the softer reeds that I might not like as much? Or should I buy some singles on eBay and postpone the big decision regarding a full box? I've read that the origin of those singles can be questionable.

The use of comparatively hard reeds ( and the goal to play harder reeds as if it is a natural progression) was the traditional thing that teachers recommended.

I was ever so happy to have gone against this tradition and settled playing with soft reeds and an open mouthpiece, this has given me less headaches and more pleasure in playing ever since I started doing that.

To think that a box is necessarily more consistent than single reeds is assuming that all the reeds in a box will come from the same plant but that is hardly ever the case (unintended pun).

Yet I prefer buying a case of 10 ( many brands are getting into smaller cases because of the enormous rise of the reeds' price the last few years).

 

[Aquarian]

Since you've tried the Vandoren sampler packs, it suggests to me you like the sound of the V16 over the other Vandorens. One option is to get harder reeds and work on them with a tool (reed knife, reedgeek, sandpaper) to make them softer. I have done that with 2.5 Javas to use them on my larger tip opening mouthpiece - it's at .090 and for me needs a slightly stiff 2 or softer 2.5. Filing down the Javas a bit puts them into the "2.25" hardness. It has the side advantage that if you learn to work reeds, you can fix any "bad" reeds you get into at the very least a playable level.

In general I would not advise using harder reeds than you have to. If it impacts sound or playability (like if you lose altissimo or low notes get warbly or too tubby) then a harder reed makes sense, but I can't see using it if it's so hard it makes you tired in 20 minutes. There might be another brand that has a cut similar to the V16 but I know that searching for just the right reed can go on seemingly forever (having gone through those sampler packs myself, and the Vandoren "classical" sampler as well - I like the V21 on my main mouthpiece).

 

[Grumps]

Since you've tried the Vandoren sampler packs, it suggests to me you like the sound of the V16 over the other Vandorens. One option is to get harder reeds and work on them with a tool (reed knife, reedgeek, sandpaper) to make them softer. I have done that with 2.5 Javas to use them on my larger tip opening mouthpiece - it's at .090 and for me needs a slightly stiff 2 or softer 2.5. Filing down the Javas a bit puts them into the "2.25" hardness.

Reeds are numerically graded as per their strength of fiber, not their thickness. Shaving them down doesn't really make them softer. Rather it degrades the strength of their fiber.

 

[Aquarian]

Reeds are numerically graded as per their strength of fiber, not their thickness. Shaving them down doesn't really make them softer. Rather it degrades the strength of their fiber.

True enough, but I'll take a "degraded" reed that plays well over a reed that's too stiff or stuffy. Life's too short to break in reeds, or fight with reeds that don't really work for you. I am still looking for a better reed that I don't need to work on but selection is limited in my area and I know Rico Royals at 2 get warbly at the bottom end. I am not buying a box of anything until I know it works well. So a working down a Java green 2.5 is my best option for the moment. Degraded or not, it plays well and lasts several weeks.

Normally I would suggest using a different cut, as the other jazz cuts all play softer at 3 and might fit OP's needs, but they've clearly done that and eliminated the other cuts. All of these are graded the same by Vandoren but play very differently due to their different cuts. There may be a more perfect reed, but that's a lot of messing around to get there. Rigotti, Alexander, D'Addario/Rico... not to mention botique brands.

 

[adamk]

True enough, but I'll take a "degraded" reed that plays well over a reed that's too stiff or stuffy. Life's too short to break in reeds, or fight with reeds that don't really work for you. I am still looking for a better reed that I don't need to work on but selection is limited in my area and I know Rico Royals at 2 get warbly at the bottom end. I am not buying a box of anything until I know it works well. So a working down a Java green 2.5 is my best option for the moment. Degraded or not, it plays well and lasts several weeks.

Normally I would suggest using a different cut, as the other jazz cuts all play softer at 3 and might fit OP's needs, but they've clearly done that and eliminated the other cuts. All of these are graded the same by Vandoren but play very differently due to their different cuts. There may be a more perfect reed, but that's a lot of messing around to get there. Rigotti, Alexander, D'Addario/Rico... not to mention botique brands.

As I have written several times if a reed is too hard i wet it well and then carefully bend it around a jar both sides testing every time for playability.
Breaks it in in seconds.

 

[Pete Thomas]

What should a somewhat advanced, but older beginner do if I have no interest in buying boxes of both? Should I challenge myself with the harder reeds and try to grow into them (hoping the one I have isn't unusually soft) or should I play it safe and go with the softer reeds that I might not like as much? Or should I buy some singles on eBay and postpone the big decision regarding a full box? I've read that the origin of those singles can be questionable.

No!!!

Challenge yourself with using the softer reeds and work on embouchure and breath support to get the sound.

Hard reeds are an easy shortcut way to get a sound without working on what really counts. If you can get the sound you want with softer reeds, you end up with lots more versatility of tone and tuning. It's worth the effort in the end.

 

[Dr G]

Reeds are numerically graded as per their strength of fiber, not their thickness. Shaving them down doesn't really make them softer. Rather it degrades the strength of their fiber.

That's kind of true, but not accurate.

Reed manufacturers don't test the individual fibers. Reeds are cut to dimension, and then graded for stiffness. If you then thin the reed, the geometry changes, and the reed is less stiff. The intrinsic stiffness of each fiber remains the same, but the composite response is changed. The stiffness of the fibers degrades with use.

 

[saxoclese]

It is always helpful to know the "context" in questions and discussions about the hardness of reeds. The tip opening and lay of the mouthpiece being used along with how long the player has been playing the saxophone often helps to give more meaningful suggestions.

 

[Grumps]

True enough, but I'll take a "degraded" reed that plays well over a reed that's too stiff or stuffy. Life's too short to break in reeds, or fight with reeds that don't really work for you.

I agree, but because reeds are graded by the strength of their fiber, any shaving you do to them necessarily degrades them. I don't like to work on reeds and choose brands for consistency given their cost. But any reed I do have to work on, I use for practice and rehearsals only. For me, because of that degradation, a shaved down reed can die on the spot; and that's something I don't care to have happen on a gig.

 

[J Dos Passos]

I had my mouthpieces all checked over. Then I had the tables flattened and the facing length established, not too long, not too short. After that, I could play a number of reed strengths with no problems. All the mouthpieces have moderate tip opening ( tenor at 87, alto at 66 and soprano at 65). Before that, reeds were a hit and miss thing.

 

[hnthere]

It is always helpful to know the "context" in questions and discussions about the hardness of reeds. The tip opening and lay of the mouthpiece being used along with how long the player has been playing the saxophone often helps to give more meaningful suggestions.

I have been playing ~4 yrs and am playing an unmodified Hite Premier. Prior to deciding to focus on that mouthpiece, I divided my time between a variety of reeds on a Meyer 5M, or a 3.5 Hemke on a Vandoren AL3, or a #2.5 Java Red on a John Thomas 0.080. With the Hite, I prefer the V16.

I want to learn how to play the sax with more skill and less equipment. Plus part of the deal with myself to allow me to buy a 1955 16M needing some work was that I'd sell the "better" alto mouthpieces and just play the Hite Premier, which I really liked before coming down with GAS.

 

[pliskin]

i manage to get 100% of the reeds i buy to play well. i used to start put flattening every reed with sandpaper on a piece of glass. but lately, i don't bother, unless a reed really presents a challenge.

these days, what i find most important is for the right and left corners of the tip to flex symmetrically. i do my own work on my mouthpiece facings. with little effort, i can get them symmetrical to within a thousandth of an inch. and i'm pretty convinced that those who only get one or two usable reeds out of box of ten, need to have your mouthpiece refaced.

i used a reed knife, (actually a scraper) throughout the 25 years when i played oboe and english horn. i know how to sharpen a knife. but i've had nothing but bad luck, using a reed knife on my saxophone reeds. it's just not the right tool for the job.

it only takes a swipe or two with a piece of sandpaper, and with the reed sitting flat on a piece of glass, to get the tip to be symmetrical. and it only takes a swipe or two with a piece of sandpaper, to turn a #3 reed into a #2-1/2 reed. likewise, a #2-1/2 reed can be turned into a #3 reed with a reed clipper.

but what i've found is that a #2-1/2 reed can be easy to honk on but takes embouchure muscles to maintain good intonation. those intonation issues largely go away with a #3 reed, making them easier to play, for extended periods of time.

 

[Grumps]

... and it only takes a swipe or two with a piece of sandpaper, to turn a #3 reed into a #2-1/2 reed. likewise, a #2-1/2 reed can be turned into a #3 reed with a reed clipper.
.

Again. That's not how reeds are graded numerically... by shaving them down or clipping them. They are graded by their strength of fiber.

 

[JL]

Based on a sample size of one of each hardness (from Vandoren jazz samplers), I'm trying to choose between buying a box of #2.5 or of #3 V16 reeds. The #3 is a little too hard for me - I can't play it much beyond 20 minutes - but it sounds great. The 2.5 is easy to play, but never achieves the sound I can get out of the #3 for 15-20 minutes. Again, all based on a sample of one of each.

First off, you cannot judge a specific brand & hardness of reeds based on a single reed. There is too much variation between reeds, even of the same relative strength, to do that. V16s come in boxes of 5, I believe, so you need to get at least one full box to make any kind of evaluation.

I played V16s for years (recently switched to Rigottis) and I can tell you that a #3 V16 is a fairly hard reed. V16s run about a half strength harder than most (not all) other brands; so a #3 V16 is closer to a 3.5 in other brands. I find 2.5 V16 to be a medium strength reed, not really soft or too hard. Some of the posts above are assuming a #3 reed is the same strength regardless of brand, which just isn't the case. Also, I'm not a fan of getting reeds that are too hard and shaving them down; far better to get ones that are close to what you want to start with.

The difference you are getting in sound may not have anything to do with the difference in strength, but rather just a difference between those two specific reeds. Every reed is a bit different, even at the same size rating.

Bottom line, I'd recommend getting a BOX of 2.5 reeds and go from there. Unless for some reason you are dead set on playing harder reeds than necessary.

p.s. I'm speaking of tenor reeds, but the same principles apply to alto reeds. You didn't say whether you're playing tenor or alto (bari or soprano?) or what mpc you're using which can be a factor. But in any case, I'd still say the V16 #3 reeds are on the hard side of the spectrum.

 

[Lambros]

Based on a sample size of one of each hardness (from Vandoren jazz samplers), I'm trying to choose between buying a box of #2.5 or of #3 V16 reeds. The #3 is a little too hard for me - I can't play it much beyond 20 minutes - but it sounds great. The 2.5 is easy to play, but never achieves the sound I can get out of the #3 for 15-20 minutes. Again, all based on a sample of one of each.

What should a somewhat advanced, but older beginner do if I have no interest in buying boxes of both? Should I challenge myself with the harder reeds and try to grow into them (hoping the one I have isn't unusually soft) or should I play it safe and go with the softer reeds that I might not like as much? Or should I buy some singles on eBay and postpone the big decision regarding a full box? I've read that the origin of those singles can be questionable.

I agree with the consensus here that a single sample is not enough; you need at least a box of 5 (if it's tenor reeds) or 10 (if it's alto). Fiber strength grading doesn't account for how each reed responds to no longer being inert (actually played on). If you know for a fact that the 2.5 are completely uncontrollable pitch-wise and/or sluggish and out of tune the higher you go. then you definitely need a 1/2 strength stronger and everything lines sup nicely and evenly in the octave ranges you're able to play in. Vandorens are pretty consistent, by the way and V16 reeds in particular are quite close from reed to reed; they're accurately graded in my experience and are about a 1/4 to a 1/3 strength stronger than identically graded Java Greens or Reds.