[drownman]

I couldn't find a thread for this, perhaps I missed it.

From the pressrelease:
Another significant highlight from the fall auction is Charlie Parker's Buescher Aristocrat E-flat alto saxophone, circa 1930s, consigned by the daughter of fellow Jazz saxophonist Bill Hood (est. $22,000-26,000). Hood often played with Parker, as well as other great musicians such as Dizzy Gillespie, Sarah Vaughan and Marty Paich. Hood and Parker were scheduled to play together one night at a Portland jazz club (circa 1953), when Parker arrived without his sax. Hood asked Parker where his instrument was and Parker responded that he had pawned it. Parker replied that if it was so important to him, he was welcome to have it and gave Hood the pawn ticket, which he later redeemed. Hood's daughter inherited the saxophone from her father and began to investigate the connection between her father and Charlie Parker. Before consigning it to Bonhams, Hood's daughter brought the sax to the television show "History Detectives," where Jazz historian Bob Dietsche verified the details of this story.

http://www.bonhams.com/press_release/11863/

And I that had a thought of doubling on alto, perfect timing!

 

[milandro]

worst time in the history to sell a saxophone like this, who knows if it will fetch the estimated value of 22.000 to 26.000$. The provenance is, in my opinion, a bit thin.........and this could very well be a Hood’s horn which was passed down as having been Parker’s, but one knows how things are told and sometimes things are made to look nicer by the use of some wishful thinking.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Hmmmm, the details of the story are verified, but it says nothing about documentary evidence of ownership by Bird, so I would be a bit sceptical about that value.

By all accounts, Bird had many horns, more famously Conns, Kings and of course the Grafton which was auctioned for a lot more, but with proper provenance rather than anecdotal. Will be interesting to see how this sells.

 

[milandro]

He had at least 16 different altos , the King super 20 (261.750$) and the Grafton (93.500£) were sold and their ownership was absolutely sure.

This is a less than certain attribution.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

Update:

Oops, didn't see that this was already cited above. Sorry.

RE:

Didn't the PBS series History Detectives do a feature a few years ago on a supposed Buescher alto sax that was alleged to have belong to Parker, and wasn't successfully proven to be the case?

 

[jrvinson45]

Even if it wasn't his, that's no reason to believe he didn't pawn it. Just sayin'....

 

[milandro]

yes, he could have pawned somebody else’s horn that he had “ borrowed ", he was known to have done that too.........

 

[Pete Thomas]

Even if it wasn't his, that's no reason to believe he didn't pawn it. Just sayin'....

The value of a Buescher Aristocrat that Bird is said to have borrowed (or if we were to be unkind, stole) and pawned but has no written provenance is probably the same as any other Buescher Aristocrat.

The other thing to consider is that even if you (as a buyer) believe the anecdote, if you come to sell the horn, that anecdote is one person further removed from the source and so gets dodgier each time it's sold on.

Pass.

 

[daardvark]

Bonhams is one of the most highly regarded auction house in the world. It would be hard to believe they jepordize their reputation on something without a full vetting process.

 

[Pete Thomas]

Bonhams is one of the most highly regarded auction house in the world. It would be hard to believe they jepordize their reputation on something without a full vetting process.

No they wouldn't, but note in the paragraph above they mention that there is a certificate of authentication for Charlie Chaplin's hat. If there was a certificate for the alto, I think they would say so. They are merely stating that the anecdotal evidence is verified.
"Jazz historian Bob Dietsche verified the details of this story"

I think if they had a certificate the guide price would be way higher.

 

[milandro]

well, the estimated value is considerably lower than other Parker’s definite saxophones and its valuation is probably based, by and large, on the TV program publicity on this horn.

They do call it Charlie Parker’s E flat Buescher Aristocrat.

“........Another significant highlight from the fall auction is Charlie Parker's Buescher Aristocrat E-flat alto saxophone, circa 1930s, consigned by the daughter of fellow Jazz saxophonist Bill Hood (est. $22,000-26,000). Hood often played with Parker, as well as other great musicians such as Dizzy Gillespie, Sarah Vaughan and Marty Paich. Hood and Parker were scheduled to play together one night at a Portland jazz club (circa 1953), when Parker arrived without his sax. Hood asked Parker where his instrument was and Parker responded that he had pawned it. Parker replied that if it was so important to him, he was welcome to have it and gave Hood the pawn ticket, which he later redeemed. Hood's daughter inherited the saxophone from her father and began to investigate the connection between her father and Charlie Parker. Before consigning it to Bonhams, Hood's daughter brought the sax to the television show "History Detectives," where Jazz historian Bob Dietsche verified the details of this story........”

In all honesty all they could verify was that Charlie Parker did indeed pawn such saxophone , I don’t think that anybody could be certain that the saxophone was his and that it was used by him in any occasion other than the pawning it.

 

[Kenneth]

In all honesty all they could verify was that Charlie Parker did indeed pawn such saxophone , I don’t think that anybody could be certain that the saxophone was his and that it was used by him in any occasion other than the pawning it.

Hmmmm, the details of the story are verified, but it says nothing about documentary evidence of ownership by Bird, so I would be a bit sceptical about that value.

What about swabbing the horn and doing a DNA test, hmm :joker:?

Kenneth

 

[Pete Thomas]

What about swabbing the horn and doing a DNA test, hmm :joker:?

Ye, well even if that was viable, it would prove only that Bird's DNA got on the horn, not that it was ever owned by him or even in his possession (legally or otherwise)

Regarding Bonham's reputation, I think they are safe with the text "Charlie Parker's Buescher Aristocrat E-flat alto saxophone," until the very unlikely event somebody could come forward with evidence that it couldn't possibly have been his at some moment in time.

A buyer should still bear in mind that if they by Charlie Chaplin's hat they get a certificate that is probably as good as any legal provenance can be.

If they buy this Aristocrat, they get a document sating that a historian agreed on TV that the investigations carried out by the daughter of the player who said that he reclaimed a horn from a pawn broker via a ticket given him by Charlie Parker were based on what the historian considered to be true events. It's not clear whether there is even any archive video of the TV programme to back this up. It is too anecdotal for anyone to part with serious money.

 

[Kenneth]

Ye, well even if that was viable, it would prove only that Bird's DNA got on the horn, not that it was ever owned by him or even in his possession (legally or otherwise)

Pete, you're right. Still, at the very least one could then claim to have played the horn that Bird played, eh?

Seriously, though, I agree with you, and Milandro, that it's all highly anecdotal, which does not in the least detract from the interest in seeing what the final price will be...

Regards,
Kenneth

 

[Pete Thomas]

Pete, you're right. Still, at the very least one could then claim to have played the horn that Bird played, eh?

Maybe he just spat in the bell

 

[JayeLID]

All the provenance is in this instance is a story; no verifiable paperwork from CP or his estate of any kind (at least which is indicated).

History Detectives may be something (I am wondering why no link is provided to some sorta synopsis of the episode being used to confirm; because I'd like to know how specific it got on identifying it as CP's regular horn) but basically this is a tale by a local Jazzer which has been researched back to some degree, granted; but thus far no specificity as to supporting docs/evidence and such.

It's a cool story, though; and I am not saying I disbelieve it. Just that from the point of view of verifiable provenance, it's not the strongest support I have ever heard of, either. However, as it is a reputable auction house, it will be interesting to see where it ends up.

 

[jrvinson45]

Pete,
I just happen to have the hatchet with which George Washington chopped down his father's cherry tree. Of course it's had seven new heads and thirteen new handles, but it was actually pawned by Charlie Parker in 1948...

 

[JL]

I did see the History Detective episode on this (you could probably find it somewhere on the internet) and as I recall, it was fairly conclusive regarding the fact that Bird pawned the horn. As Pete implies that doesn't prove he ever played it. But I would bet he did play it a least a few times if he owned it long enough to pawn it. Still, the fact he owned and pawned so many horns would tend to devalue them to a collector (I think), except maybe for a horn like the Grafton or his King that appeared in photos of him.

Aside from all that, I don't really understand the extreme add-on value for a musical instrument that was owned by a famous player. That doesn't make the instrument play any better. It would be kind of cool to hold or play a horn that Bird played, but I sure wouldn't pay thousands of dollars for that priviledge. But then, I'm not rich....

 

[sirspinbad]

So when is the auction?

 

[milandro]

were you going to bid? I think it was 2 days ago.

“..........Los Angeles – Bonhams is pleased to announce its November 18 auction of Entertainment Memorabilia in Los Angeles."