Joined
·
1,071 Posts
From real book- Footprints my best shot is-b c# d# e f g# a b d so I went down a 1/2 step on 5 and up 1/2 step on 9 ?? correct ?
Can't understand this chord....B 7 b5 (#9)
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Joined
·
3,851 Posts
You have a natural 9th in your scale, you didn't raise it. Raising it a 1/2 step to make it a #9 would make it C double sharp which is enharmonically D natural.
The appropriate scale for that chord would be the Altered scale. Often times when you add the #9, you can add the b9 as well. Same goes for altered 5th. Where you see one, you can add the other (you don't have to but you can). So you can play B C D D# F G A B which is Root, b9, #9, b5/#11, #5/b13, b7, R AKA the Altered scale AKA the diminished/whole tone scale AKA the Superlocrian scale.
The appropriate scale for that chord would be the Altered scale. Often times when you add the #9, you can add the b9 as well. Same goes for altered 5th. Where you see one, you can add the other (you don't have to but you can). So you can play B C D D# F G A B which is Root, b9, #9, b5/#11, #5/b13, b7, R AKA the Altered scale AKA the diminished/whole tone scale AKA the Superlocrian scale.
Joined
·
1,071 Posts
Thanks! See it now, Jamey notes it as B 7 +9- in Real Book it is " B 7 b5 (#9)" a little confusing OK now .
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,061 Posts
That seems very confusing. Learn the chord tones thoroughly, then try adding passing notes. This is way better than trying to find a scale to "fit". How do the chord tones resolve? ie, look at the voice leading.
Joined
·
1,071 Posts
I will pay close attention to what is written for that measure-A D A Ab next measure goes to D7 G is written.This is Footprints from Real Book vol 6 page 144.
Joined
·
4,851 Posts
Context is everything. What key are you in? I assume this B7alt is operating in D minor. Tenor chords in tenor key?
As a tenor player, I'd just think of it as an F7#11, it will make motives (off the preceding descending chromatic dominant seventh chords) much more accessible.
As a tenor player, I'd just think of it as an F7#11, it will make motives (off the preceding descending chromatic dominant seventh chords) much more accessible.
Joined
·
1,071 Posts
The preceding measure is F# 7 +9 as mentioned before, the chord after this is D minor 7. I am learning- but now again confused-how can a measure say B7alt and be "operating in D minor ? Am I approaching this the wrong way 1 I have set to memory scales,in the process of getting chord tones memorized as well-playing Jamey's pattern exercises in all keys-at least in C,F,Bb,Eb,Ab and Db-Maj,7 and Minor. Soon to add the other scales Diminished,+whole tone etc...
I am seeing great improvement in my dexterity and phrasing (joining local community band a big plus) I am reading, playing,doing exercises,listening to great Jazz and Blues and most of all having fun !
I have some great books to help me along Aebersold #1,2,3,24 and 42.
I am seeing great improvement in my dexterity and phrasing (joining local community band a big plus) I am reading, playing,doing exercises,listening to great Jazz and Blues and most of all having fun !
I have some great books to help me along Aebersold #1,2,3,24 and 42.
Joined
·
29,080 Posts
And for those that don't like to think that hard: http://www.musicopedia.com/chords/0-piano.php
Joined
·
3,034 Posts
Exactly. Learn to improvise in an intervalic fashion, not a scalar fashion. And thats not to say you will NOT play scales. But if you appraoch improvisation from a perspective of what scale do I play over this chord and what scale do i play over that chord, in the absence of true intervallic understanding (chordal) then your history.
Joined
·
25,258 Posts
This is where you went wrong from the start. By spelling out a scale instead of the chord. I guess I'm just repeating what everyone has said in this thread so far, but you really want to start with the chord itself; the actual chord tones.
So, if the chord is B7b5(#9), just take a B7 chord, flat the 5th and raise the 9th:
B D# F A C## (of course the C## is D).
A shortcut I often use when I see a #9 chord is to think b3, even though that's not technically correct, because the major 3rd is still in there if it's a dominant chord. I think it's ok to use that shortcut if and only if you understand in the back of your mind that the "b3" is actually a #9.
Joined
·
3,851 Posts
You can't exactly apply logic to a lot of Wayne Shorter's compositions. He doesn't exactly follow the "rules". Often times you just have to approach chords individually without trying to related them to the key, the preceding chord, or the following chord.
Joined
·
4,851 Posts
Aebersold can be very misleading. His theory doesnt take context into account, when it weighs heavily into scale choices and passing tones.
E.g. Most seasoned players would play different lines over B7alt in 'Beautiful Love' in E minor, than the B7alt in 'Footprints' in D minor. You have to consider the key youre in in order to determine what souds best.
E.g. Most seasoned players would play different lines over B7alt in 'Beautiful Love' in E minor, than the B7alt in 'Footprints' in D minor. You have to consider the key youre in in order to determine what souds best.
Grafton + TH & C alto || Naked Lady 10M || TT soprano || Martin Comm III
Joined
·
30,061 Posts
That's right. There are (at least) two lessons here:
- In conventional harmony, you get lots of chords with notes that aren't in the "key". These are chromatic notes, as opposed to diatonic. Diatonic means all the notes are in the key signature. It's common in the key of C to have chords of A7, D7, F#º, F7, Fm6 etc even with quite basic harmonic progressions.
- With jazz, not only do you get those, but you get a lot of unconventional harmony. Cadences that can't be analysed and explained by theory.
Start at the beginning, get familiar with the rules and get gradually more complex before trying to understand and play the stuff that is either complex or completely breaks any rules.
Joined
·
25,258 Posts
Well said! This quote should probably preceed every music theory discussion on here.
Case in point: The 'altered scale.' I always found this particular scale very strange and hard to derive, even though I knew it was to do with dom7alt chord (dominant chord with all possible alterations of its extensions). Until I realized it was simply a diminished scale, combined with a whole tone scale. Until and unless you know the diminished and whole tone scales really well, the altered scale makes no sense; or you have to derive it from the 7th degree of a melodic minor scale, which is a crazy way to approach it, imo.
But if you know the diminished scales well (there's only 3 of them) and the whole tone scale (only 2 of them!), it's simple enough to derive the 12 altered scales: Moving upward, play the first 5 tones of a 'half-whole' diminished scale, followed by three whole steps and you're there.
I'm just citing that as one example (maybe not the best one, but the alt scale came up earlier in this thread) of how it's helpful to go from less complex to more complex.
And of course you need to know the 12 major scales very, very well before you can understand anything else.
p.s. Apologies to Pete if this doesn't really help illustrate what he was saying. I think he was refering to the more general case of chord progressions and the basic rules of harmony, but I also think his statement applies to many of the discussions on here regarding chords, scales, etc.
Joined
·
4,701 Posts
See now, there's a real musician for you. Trickster!
Here is how I was taught to derive the altered scale - take the ascending melodic minor scale from the note 1/2 step higher. So for B7 alt play B C D Eb (aka D#) F G A.
Back to tricks - once I learned that scale I would choose a couple notes from it and make a riff before returning to a chord that I understood better. I would choose notes that maybe were out of the key signature, and them move them back to harmonic notes on the next chord. That helps get the sonority in the mind's ear.
Joined
·
25,258 Posts
I guess I'll keep this thread alive for another day or so.
As usual, gary has cut to the chase:
Whenever you see a chord like B7b5(#9) or B9 or B7+5, etc, you are dealing with a dominant chord. So you can't really go wrong playing the 3rd or 7th of that chord (in this case D# or A) or just treating it like any dominant chord. Now, I should qualify this a bit in saying you might want to emphasize one or more of the altered tones. But you don't have to do that, nor do you have to play off an entire altered scale. It's a dominant chord so as along as you resolve it well you can do a lot of things with it.
As usual, gary has cut to the chase:
Just to expand on gary's excellent response slightly, I'll add something that some here may or may not agree with (feel free to discuss).
Whenever you see a chord like B7b5(#9) or B9 or B7+5, etc, you are dealing with a dominant chord. So you can't really go wrong playing the 3rd or 7th of that chord (in this case D# or A) or just treating it like any dominant chord. Now, I should qualify this a bit in saying you might want to emphasize one or more of the altered tones. But you don't have to do that, nor do you have to play off an entire altered scale. It's a dominant chord so as along as you resolve it well you can do a lot of things with it.
Joined
·
25,258 Posts
This is pretty cool. But I wonder why they notate a C7 chord as C E G A# (A# instead of Bb) and, even worse, Cmi7 as C D# G A#. I realize they are enharmonic spellings, but why show a b7 as #6 and b3 as #2? I find that curiously disturbing.
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
