[Jazziswaswillbe]

I would love to hear people’s experiences and preferences when it comes to a head to head with these two. I haven’t owned an M58 in years but certainly liked it a LOT when I had it. I TRIED a VR many years ago and thought it was a very good horn. But I haven’t played either in years and never close in time.

 

[dctwells]

I used to have an Viking M58 and had a chance to play it back to back with a VR tenor. It was several years ago but I remember thinking the Viking was the much better horn. Lighter, more resonant, and more neutral in tone than the Cannonball. Every Cannonball I’ve ever played had a certain quality to the sound that just didn’t do it for me.

 

[dctwells]

FWIW I think the Cannonball had a factory setup while my Viking had been meticulously gone through by a first-rate tech. It’s not always fair to compare two horns when one of them is in subpar playing condition.

 

[swperry1]

FWIW I think the Cannonball had a factory setup while my Viking had been meticulously gone through by a first-rate tech. It's not always fair to compare two horns when one of them is in subpar playing condition.

What's up, Dave!
The techs at Cannonball are good and they tend to be great at quality control and making sure everything's good to go before they ship out to their dealers. They're super nice if you go visit their Utah home base.

I never A/B compared the Cball vintage reborn with an m58, but both VR examples I've played have been really nice...I like them better than probably all the stone series I played (way too many to count) except the one I sold when my M58s replaced it. I really love my M58s. It was set up by Ken Beason, then Ken fixed it up even better than new when I did some damage to it (case failure, dropped from bar table height to a hard tile floor). Since then the Tenor Madness guys did a service for me and they really liked it (quality and how it plays)...it came back to me playing better than ever!

 

[saxyjare01]

I'd definitely take a Viking over a Cannonball any day of the year.

The Viking horns were mostly made in the same factory as Macsax (Wei Family). I would contact Rich and talk to him about the Weissenberg tenors. They are like the Viking horns but with a few improvements!

 

[Jazziswaswillbe]

I'd definitely take a Viking over a Cannonball any day of the year.

The Viking horns were mostly made in the same factory as Macsax (Wei Family). I would contact Rich and talk to him about the Weissenberg tenors. They are like the Viking horns but with a few improvements!

Have you played them?

 

[Jazziswaswillbe]

I wonder. I know so many people who have HAD an M58 but don’t now. I thought I liked the M58 more than the VR. But I recently have heard some top pros who play VR’s as their main horns and they sound awesome. And I’m wondering how many people have made the M58 their main horn. Just wondering. I still think I’d prefer the M58. But I’m interested in hearing from as many folks as know them both.

 

[saxyjare01]

Have you played them?

Yes.

It's not just the sound. The cannonball horns are made in such a way that they're structurally unsound. It's the same factory that makes Eastman and I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands. One student that I know played a 52nd street and the neck came out of the tenon on a gig. The quality control from that factory is meh at best.

 

[LostConn]

The cannonball horns are made in such a way that they're structurally unsound. It's the same factory that makes Eastman and I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands.

Surely there's enough cumulative experience among all players of Cannonball saxophones -- a brand with a far longer tenure than Viking's -- for us to safely conclude that having a Cannonball fall apart in your hands is not a material risk.

 

[Reet McVouty]

Yes.

It's not just the sound. The cannonball horns are made in such a way that they're structurally unsound. It's the same factory that makes Eastman and I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands. One student that I know played a 52nd street and the neck came out of the tenon on a gig. The quality control from that factory is meh at best.

What? Someone you know had an Eastman fall apart and somehow Cannonballs are structurally unsound? How do you make that connection? And what is your credible source that they are made at the same factory? First off, Cannonball's horns are all set up at their headquarters in Utah. And, they are built like tanks. I own a Cannonball alto and it is an extremely solid and well built horn, if I find any fault with it it's just a touch too heavy. As far as Eastman's go I've never tried one so I have no personal opinion, but if Bob Mintzer is playing one I think that's a big endorsement. Your statement "I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands." lacks believability, so I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

Eastman Winds artists: https://www.eastmanwinds.com/artists

Expert review: http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/cannonball_trio.htm

 

[Jazziswaswillbe]

What? Someone you know had an Eastman fall apart and somehow Cannonballs are structurally unsound? How do you make that connection? And what is your credible source that they are made at the same factory? First off, Cannonball's horns are all set up at their headquarters in Utah. And, they are built like tanks. I own a Cannonball alto and it is an extremely solid and well built horn, if I find any fault with it it's just a touch too heavy. As far as Eastman's go I've never tried one so I have no personal opinion, but if Bob Mintzer is playing one I think that's a big endorsement. Your statement "I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands." lacks believability, so I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

Eastman Winds artists: https://www.eastmanwinds.com/artists

Expert review: http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/cannonball_trio.htm

Yeah. I've seen top tier pros playing Eastman 52nd St altos and tenors (I saw Mintzer live and he had his Eastman, not his Selmer) and many more pros play Cannonballs and I am a huge fan of a couple of them (Branford Marsalis said once that the Vintage Reborn alto was the best new horn out there) I doubt you could convince Gerald Albright that Cannonballs are poorly made - and he plays the hell out of his all the time. So I think your experience of knowing people who have had those horns fall apart is a REALLY unusual experience. I actually thought you were putting me on!

 

[Ixthusdan]

I have not played any Viking horns. I played a Conn horn made in Elkhart, Indiana, from 1968 until 1974. It was a school rental. Remembering it is impossible, as I was in high school. I currently own a Vintage Reborn. The horn is great. Cannonball horns are produced in Taiwan, but the factory only makes their stuff exclusively. I owned a Buescher Aristocrat (I traded for a new Couf in 1979) in the late 70s, made in Elkhart, Indiana. The Cannonball has the same "weight" and feel as that older horn. None of my horns, including my Vito alto from the mid 70s and my WWBW house horn (~2000, made in Taiwan) have ever "fallen apart." My tech did tell me that my Woodwind horn was harder to adjust and I have no idea what that means since I am not a tech. At this late date, criticism of Taiwan horns because they are made in Taiwan may be unwarranted.

 

[Dr G]

Yes.

It's not just the sound. The cannonball horns are made in such a way that they're structurally unsound.

Please tell us more about that claim.

 

[saxyjare01]

What? Someone you know had an Eastman fall apart and somehow Cannonballs are structurally unsound? How do you make that connection? And what is your credible source that they are made at the same factory? First off, Cannonball's horns are all set up at their headquarters in Utah. And, they are built like tanks. I own a Cannonball alto and it is an extremely solid and well built horn, if I find any fault with it it's just a touch too heavy. As far as Eastman's go I've never tried one so I have no personal opinion, but if Bob Mintzer is playing one I think that's a big endorsement. Your statement "I've seen quite a few of those fall apart in a player's hands." lacks believability, so I guess we'll just have to take your word for it.

Eastman Winds artists: https://www.eastmanwinds.com/artists

Expert review: http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk/Reviews/Saxes/Alto/cannonball_trio.htm

I'm keeping my sources confidential. However, when students of mine and students of a former teacher have the same experiences with Eastman horns, that's all you need to know. They're are made in the same factory, by the same people, with the same factory doing QC before they're shipped out. I will admit that they've gotten better but not sustainably does. And what are your credentials? Do you teach students who have these horns?

You can throw Mintzer's name in all you want - you don't speak for him and neither do I. Nonetheless, I'm sure they made that horn well if he's endorsing it. It's the same with any manufacturer. They want to make sure the horns in the hands of top endorsers are built as well as possible so they can sell more horns. It's not rocket science or some conspiracy, just facts. Speak to some techs who really know what's going on and players who can actually play and teach. It'll open your eyes up a bit.

 

[saxyjare01]

Please tell us more about that claim.

Ok, there's a solid request.

If you look at how Selmer and Yamaha solder their keys you'll see that they cool them down immediately after they solder. That hardens the metal or, at least, keeps it from softening further. At the factory where these horns come from, they don't cool them down with water or anything, they sit them on a shelf to cool. That makes the keys etc. softer than it needs to be. Solder can shift and things can become structurally unsound. That's my big gripe with the process. I love the sound of the 52nd Street and some of the VR horns, but until they fix this critical part I won't recommend them to students or peers.

 

[dctwells]

I didn’t realize Eastman and Cannonball horns were made in the same factory. I’ve played a few Eastman altos and thought they were great ...... for me far superior to any Cannonball I’ve played.

Just to clarify, I’m not suggesting that Cannonballs come poorly from the factory. In my one experience playing a Vintage Reborn tenor the horn, being sold as brand new, had some serious leaks that made it really hard to compare it to anything else. Most likely damage during shopping that the dealer was too lazy to fix.

 

[J-Moen]

Well, when I picked out my new Tenor, I played a cannonball vintage series alongside an Eastman 52nd St, Yamaha YTS62IIIS, and P. Mauriat 66RDK (and seperately a Borgani Pearl Silver Jubilee that was too expensive ) - The Eastman had the best sound and action, so I chose that. But all of them were great horns, except the Yamaha was bland and heavy - not to my liking. However, I will say I Definitely have had zero "falling apart" issues with my Eastman, it feels solid and survived shipping from Pennsylvania to Colorado without crumbling to bits.

I have heard of many people having similar experiences with the Viking horns as with the Eastman/Cannonball horns, so I would imagine I'd go for whichever one I could get a better deal on if I was looking for the two.

 

[Jazziswaswillbe]

I didn't realize Eastman and Cannonball horns were made in the same factory. I've played a few Eastman altos and thought they were great ...... for me far superior to any Cannonball I've played.

Just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that Cannonballs come poorly from the factory. In my one experience playing a Vintage Reborn tenor the horn, being sold as brand new, had some serious leaks that made it really hard to compare it to anything else. Most likely damage during shopping that the dealer was too lazy to fix.

Yeah. The VR I played many years ago in a store sealed tight as a drum and spoke really well. My thought was, 'like my VI minus 40 years of vibrating!' Just not quite the resonance of a vintage. But a quality sound. I think now: slightly darker than my M58 was. The M58 had a perfect core for me at the time. Hence I'm wondering other people's experiences and comparisons of the two - partly because - my main horn is a 10M and I want a newer horn that strives for a Selmer vibe. (Don't have the money to buy a vintage Selmer, nor the time and money to go play them all over. (My experience being that there are average VI's and phenomenal sounding ones.)
Just as an aside: I played a Big Bell Stone Series tenor for years. It was built like a tank. You couldn't convince me based on THAT experience that there is anything wrong with their build quality.

 

[Saxaholic]

Viking all day long for me. Better tone and balance, construction is excellent, wonderful horns. A shame they aren't made anymore.

I've spoken at length in the past on the quality control issues and structural integrity of the Eastman horns. I dont know if that connects to Cannonball or not. But the vast majority of Eastmans that I've seen were very sub-par on build quality.

- Saxaholic

 

[KeithL]

I've not gotten to try a VR tenor but played two CB tenors, an early Mad Meg and a later Stone Series as well as a bari though I can't remember what model exactly. None of them impressed me but that was years ago and I know lots of folks love these horns. FWIW the factory setups at that time were very underwhelming compared to what was coming out of Yani or Yamaha. Maybe they're better now.

Many years ago I was visiting Mark at USA Horn and asking him about all the Taiwanese brands that were becoming popular. He pulled out 5-6 horns he had in his storeroom and made me play them without looking at them to begin with (he took them out of the cases and assembled each for me) to see which I would like the best if I didn't know what brand they were. The one that I liked the best turned out to be an RS Berkeley Virtuoso. There were two Vikings in the group an M58 and a C40M or M40C - can't remember exactly but the "40" model. Of those, I liked the 40 better which I believe was supposed to be modeled after a BA or SBA. In the end none of them played any better for me than my Barone which at the time was less than half the cost of any of them. Although, I admit, aesthetically I'm partial to the Vikings which I find to be very good looking horns.

Unless you have a lead on getting one of these horns at a really good price why limit yourself to just these two? Go out and try a bunch of horns, you might be surprised what you end up coming home with.