[3dBDown]

I played alto & baritone in the grades (4-8), but not in HighShool (rock guitar was the order of the late 60's) Now, in my seniority, I've picked up the sax again and have two yamahas (yts23 & yas23) - strong horns for being student grade, both were used - a total investment less than $1500 for both.

But you always wonder what playing a pro horn would be like. (Obviously all I've ever played were student grade instruments; a Bundy alto and the Jr. High's baritone, & now my yams)

Could one really appreciate what the added dollars had begot, say $4k for a decently maintained, used Selmer Paris ?

There's a pretty good sax wrench shop here in san jose, and I figured: "since he'd have no skin in the game (not a salesman), I might get a clean answer to my question". Here's what he said, as closely reproduced as I can recall (lightly paraphrased, that is):

"As the player, you probably cannot appreciate the difference in sound between horns, it takes someone else, who knows your sound, to listen, hear & feel the differences."

To me the term "feel" deals mostly with the key-action and the feel you get from the horn resonating, beyond thatIi'm likely clueless. The listener's sense of feel would obviously me more asthetic, less mechanical. The fellow was pretty adamant that the listener had to "know your sound".

Your thoughts?

 

[Stephen Howard]

I don't agree that the player can't appreciate the difference in sound between horns - if that was the case we'd always have to take a listener with us when we went shopping for a new one.
Sure, having a listener's opinion can be useful when you've found two horns you really like - but most of the time you'd be looking to them to confirm what you already know.

The bottom line is, you're the player, you're the one that has to use the horn, so buy the one that does it for you...and stuff what anyone else thinks.

As for whether you can appreciate the difference between a student horn and a pro one - yes, you can...though that doesn't always mean the pro horn will give you what you want.
I've played on student horns that have been set up better than pro horns, but in general a pro horn should feel mechanically better under the fingers. Slicker, a bit more responsive, better ergonomics. With modern production techniques this distinction isn't so noticeable. As for the other kind of feel - the tonal response - you should get more of that from a better horn...but after a certain price point the horns stop getting better and just become different.

Regards,

 

[alljoe]

I have a seller alto I have had since college. I played it and a Jupiter to someone to see if she could tell a difference. She did, and liked the old selmer better.

To tell the truth, I was surprised because she had no music training. She also didn't "know my sound".

 

[Dave Dolson]

I think there is truth in both positions . . . the audience MAY hear differences that the player doesn't because the player is being influenced by the feel and response of the instrument as well as the surrounding musicians in the ensemble, if playing in a group. While the ultimate decision is the player's, for sure, I always find objective comments from the audience interesting - and I do consider those from folks who I believe know the issues. True, it may be that some in the audience are influenced by extraneous factors, too.

I also think there is a difference between student and pro-quality instruments, even though good players can play a student-level horn and make you think it is the best instrument available.

3dBDown, for $4K you can come close to a new Ref 54 Selmer alto. Now there is a saxophone with which I can feel a distinct difference compared to other models. Not only does the Ref 54 have what I believe is a unique sound to the player (me, and I've played several of them, all of which had the same tone - an amazing accomplishment alone), it has a "feel" (meaning what my fingers perceive) that is unlike any other modern saxophone I've played. I don't mean to start a which-model-is-best argument here, I only cite that as an example to answer your question about differences among various models. DAVE

 

[3dBDown]

Stephan, alljoe & Dave,
Thank you for your comments, I guess my next steps have to include finding opportunities to try a few.

I've read some about the Ref 54... WWBW had an alto Ref54 with a bird engraved on the bell. The descriptions were very enticing, the pix exquiste - the price was, well... Selmer..

There's a fellow with a Tenor Selmer Reference 36 (next is his quote):
"The Ref.36 is a reissue of the old Balanced Action body spec's but with all the modern refinements ." He says he has a "MK VI" he wants to keep but that can be played comparatively.

I'd love to play them, but I'd be a little sheepish about going just to play them, because $4k is a lot of coin, for me at least, and I don't know if I could present myself as as a genuine shopper. (I could probably manage to write the check, but the wife would probably remove my two ballast orbs - or just divorce me, which would make it a very expensive sax!)

 

[skeller047]

Short answer - yes, you can feel and hear the difference.

Longer answer, don't restrict yourself to Selmer. In the 60's, there really wasn't much else. Now there is. (Selmers are worse, others are better...) Go to a bunch of music stores (if you live in San Jose, and you have a car, you have many options) and try a bunch of horns. You'll be able to tell, and you may end up spending much less than $4K.

 

[dexdex]

Though a Selmer fan myself, I'd like to back all what was said so far, and it really doesn't need to be a Selmer.
It is in the extremes that a pro horn will make the most difference: lower and altissimo range, pianissimo and fortissimo, subtone, etc... This is where a pro horn will go further and easier, while a Yam 23 will let you feel the limits. Even more if you move to a more open mouthpiece. A pro horn will allow more expression, more versatility.

 

[Jeff Foster]

Short answer - yes, you can feel and hear the difference.

Longer answer, don't restrict yourself to Selmer. In the 60's, there really wasn't much else.

This is something I've thought about a lot lately. I began playing in the 60's and that was the way it was presented to me. Selmer was the only pro horn worth having, or so it was said. This is not intended to be a knock against Selmer because the Mark VI was indeed a fabulous horn. However, because I was steered toward a Mark VI I never had the opportunity to try anything else and had no idea how good some of the other makes were. One example is the King Super 20. That wasn't even on the radar back then and yet, as I know now, the Super 20 was a fantastic horn. In fact, I never had the opportunity to play one until very recently. After spending an hour or so playing a 1965 Super 20 I bought it on the spot. Just my humble opinion sprinkled with a generous helping of subjectivity but I like it better than any Mark VI tenor I've ever played and I've played a lot of them. When I was in High School there were a couple of kids that had Buffet Super Dynactions and we sort of looked down our noses at them as if somehow they had settled on a lesser horn and should've insisted that their parents buy them a Mark VI. I never actually played any of their horns. It wasn't until I was grown up and playing professionally that I had a chance to play a SDA. I never actually bought one but have played several of them and they are super good horns. I never even heard of a Keilwerth back in the '60s. Turns out Keilwerth was building some of the finest horns in the world back then. Who knew? All this to say, although there is no doubt the Mark VI was a very special instrument, I can't help but wonder why so many of us never even considered any of the really fine offerings from other manufacturers. My parents bought me a Mark VI in 1970 and I can't thank them enough for it but I wonder if that's the horn I would've chosen had I had the chance to evaluate it against a Super 20, a Super Dynaction and maybe and H. Couf Superba.

Oh, and so as not to highjack the thread, yes you can definitely feel and hear the difference.