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Discussion Starter #1
C = CDEFGABC
C7 = CDEFGA(Bb)C
C- = CD(Eb)FGA(Bb)C
What the heck is C-7? If it is the same as C minor, why the 7? Thanks. Mayho
 

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mayho said:
C = CDEFGABC
C7 = CDEFGA(Bb)C
C- = CD(Eb)FGA(Bb)C
What the heck is C-7? If it is the same as C minor, why the 7? Thanks. Mayho

These are actually chords, you spelled out their associated scales.

c= C E G
c7 = C E G Bb
C-7 = C Eb G Bb

without the '7' a chord is just a triad (unless it has a 9th, 11th, or 13th on it of course)
 

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Chords, not scales. The C- refers to the triad (C, Eb, G) and is often used with a major seventh in the scale (jazz melodic or harmonic minor being the most used in my experience). C-7 denotes the addition of the flat 7 on the chord (and in the scale).
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Convinced

Every now and then I convince myself that I'm going to learn theory. The sound you hear is me sheepishly going back to noodling on my sax. Thanks again for the help. Mayho

I thought the C- meant to flat the 3rd and 7th, when I saw the C-7 I thought "I'm already doing that".
 

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mayho said:
C = CDEFGABC
C7 = CDEFGA(Bb)C
C- = CD(Eb)FGA(Bb)C
What the heck is C-7? If it is the same as C minor, why the 7? Thanks. Mayho
The truth is you really don't know whether they're the same or not without context. Sometimes I use either symbol for the same thing, when I write notes for myself.

Strictly speaking C- is a triad and C-7 is a seventh chord, yes. But if the chord is acting as tonic then I just use C-, thereby giving myself the option to use a major (B) or a minor (Bb) seventh chord. Like the first chord in BLUE BOSSA as an example.

If it's a predominant function like the last four bars of ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE then I use C-7. Can you play a major 7th on C-7 in ALL THE THINGS -- sure, if you do it right, but it is not as a chord tone.

WHEN IN DOUBT, PICK THE DIATONIC NOTE.
 

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I would recommend to anyone that you use a lower case "m" or "min" for minor. The minus sign is OK for your own shorthand but not so good other people are trying to read your chords. ust my humble opinion.

Also sometimes it is used to denote a flattened extension (-9) so it is confusing to use it for minor.

mayho - no need to be sheepish. The mistake you made is totally understandable as many people associate a certain scale with a certain chord. While this can sometimes be useful, it is a shortcut used when teaching impro. It's OK as long as you don't treat it as too dogmatically and move on quickly to understanding that it's more impportant to understand than chords and how they work rather than slavishly memorising which scale fits which chord.

Some beginners jazz theory on my site which you might find useful.
 

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Its also worth noting that if we're talking scales or extending the chord into 9, 11, or 13 that a C-7 could be the Aeolian mode as opposed to Dorian. This would flat the A, the 13. I was told that a minor chord is only Dorian if it is followed by a dominant 7th chord a fourth higher, like in a ii-V progression. This was told by a fantastic keyboard player. However, in practice that doesn't always work, many people will just play Dorian.
 

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Pete Thomas said:
I would recommend to anyone that you use a lower case "m" or "min" for minor. The minus sign is OK for your own shorthand but not so good other people are trying to read your chords. ust my humble opinion.

Also sometimes it is used to denote a flattened extension (-9) so it is confusing to use it for minor.

mayho - no need to be sheepish. The mistake you made is totally understandable as many people associate a certain scale with a certain chord. While this can sometimes be useful, it is a shortcut used when teaching impro. It's OK as long as you don't treat it as too dogmatically and move on quickly to understanding that it's more impportant to understand than chords and how they work rather than slavishly memorising which scale fits which chord.

I would much rather see a - (C-) than lower case min for minor when reading hand written charts for the simple reason that many people just have horrible handwriting. I got into the habit of using - because this is what Abersold uses and I have learned so many chords for tunes with Abersold as the source.

I see your point and it is the way I learned it in college, but again one man's M is another man's m. Maybe we need to teach penmanship to anyone that wants to write a chart
 

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maestroelite said:
Its also worth noting that if we're talking scales or extending the chord into 9, 11, or 13 that a C-7 could be the Aeolian mode as opposed to Dorian. This would flat the A, the 13. I was told that a minor chord is only Dorian if it is followed by a dominant 7th chord a fourth higher, like in a ii-V progression. This was told by a fantastic keyboard player. However, in practice that doesn't always work, many people will just play Dorian.
Not always true. Modal or semi-modal tunes would normally use the dorian mode unless otherwise specified. I use natural (or harmonic/melodic) minor when it's the tonic chord in a minor key (ie, Blue Bossa) or when it's tonicized by a minor ii-V7b9 progression, or when it's obviously functioning as a vi chord (All The Things You Are; I-vi-ii-V7 progression). I make make the choice pretty spontaneously but I think I assume dorian unless I see something that makes me instinctually choose otherwise (like a minor ii-V).
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Agent27 said:
Not always true. Modal or semi-modal tunes would normally use the dorian mode unless otherwise specified. I use natural (or harmonic/melodic) minor when it's the tonic chord in a minor key (ie, Blue Bossa) or when it's tonicized by a minor ii-V7b9 progression, or when it's obviously functioning as a vi chord (All The Things You Are; I-vi-ii-V7 progression). I make make the choice pretty spontaneously but I think I assume dorian unless I see something that makes me instinctually choose otherwise (like a minor ii-V).
I thank all of you for your help/response, and I'd love to be able to play and understand this one day. Is there ONE book that can take me from rank novice to accomplishing this goal? Thanks.Mayho
 

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WHEN IN DOUBT, PICK THE DIATONIC NOTE.

Try Mark Levines, JAZZ THEORY BOOK.
 

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mayho said:
I thank all of you for your help/response, and I'd love to be able to play and understand this one day. Is there ONE book that can take me from rank novice to accomplishing this goal? Thanks.Mayho
I started with the free handout from Jamey Aebersold and went from there. The fundamentals I learned from that were reenforced and expanded when I took Music Theory courses in college. By the time I took a Jazz Theory class and had a Jazz Theory book I already had a firm grasp on almost everything I needed to know.

The Jazz Theory Book is good. Levine puts in a lot of practical examples taken directly from the solos of the masters. IMHO that's the single greatest thing about that book.
 

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Pete Thomas said:
I would recommend to anyone that you use a lower case "m" or "min" for minor. The minus sign is OK for your own shorthand but not so good other people are trying to read your chords. ust my humble opinion.

Also sometimes it is used to denote a flattened extension (-9) so it is confusing to use it for minor.
.........
Some beginners jazz theory on my site which you might find useful.
---------
You cannot write "C minor 7" and in the meantime "C major 7" when in the first case the term "minor" is referred to "C", and in the second case the term
"major" is referred to "7". What are you doing? Once you put the adjectif(minor)after "C" and once before "7"??? However the problem is the seem also when you write "C-7" because "-" means minor. Your nomenclature system must be revisited, I think. Saluti. Paolo Mannelli.
 

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For any school work, I must use the lowercase m with a line over the top. Not so easy to do typed, but for handwriting there's nothing better.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Thanks again for all the help! I can not believe I started this thread in june of 07, it seems like yesterday. There is a wealth of information available. Right now I'm using the complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory. (very basic)
I'm also frequenting many of our fellow members websites, too many to list but great sites all. Mayho
 

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Thanks again for all the help! I can not believe I started this thread in june of 07, it seems like yesterday. There is a wealth of information available. Right now I'm using the complete Idiot's Guide to Music Theory. (very basic)
I'm also frequenting many of our fellow members websites, too many to list but great sites all. Mayho
>You've asked. I've answered. What are your considerations about?
Paolo.
 

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C7 = C D E F G A Bb
C- = C D Eb F G A B
C-7 = C D Eb F G A Bb (dorian mode)
C7, C- and C-7 are chord symbols not scales.

The scales you've suggested are good scales, but it's important to realise that when you fit a scale to a chord, it all depends on the context of how the chord is functioning, where it's going and where it's been.

The scale that you might put to a chord can also vary depending on how much tension or colour you are after.
 
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