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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I recently bought this silver-plated horn from tenoradict. These are his photos and i hope he doesn't mind me using them here. It's very interesting sax and appears to be a Buffet SuperDynaction stenciled as Couesnon Paris. I will also port over some of the comments from the Horns for Sale area. What do you Buffet experts make of the horn? I find the strap ring really unusual.





More photos to follow.
 

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Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2007-
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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Here are some of the previous comments made in the For Sale area:

bfoster 64:
Incredible! It is definitely an SDA--except that the neck looks a little different! ??? What a scoRE!! I predict this horn will kick ***. Is that nickel plate?

soybean:
This one used to belong to Saintsday. It's silver plated, not nickle (according to former owners). I agree it looks like a Buffet SDA, but i'm not a Buffet expert. Glad to hear bfoster64 thinks so. I do have a love for Couesnon saxes, but this is probably made after the fire that burned down the Couesnon factory.

About the neck, I hope it's the original one and not a replacement. Oh well. I'll post a review of this horn in the Buffet area in a few weeks.

bfoster64:
In real silver plate. Nice.

I have 99% confidence, just looking at the photos, that the body and keywork are all SDA.

The octave key on the neck is not the same as on my SDA, but Buffet started changing that part of the horn in the 70s, so who knows?

There's also something about the taper where it transitions from the arch to the straight tube that looks unfamiliar to me. It looks more like an SML neck than my Buffet neck. I'm not too familiar with Couesnons--maybe it is an original Couesnon-manufactured neck that they put on a Buffet-manufactured body and keywork?

But the thing is, I never use the original neck on my SDA. I have a Barone neck on mine that seems to have been made for it. The original neck is still a good neck, but it is a little more resistant in the extreme high and low register. A friend of mine who played both necks on my SDA also agreed the Barone neck works a little better.

The bell key guard is obviously not an original Buffet SDA part, but it does have the pearls just like an SDA guard.

sigmund451:
Ive looked around and Ive never seen any of their featured horns with a Buffet Style brace. Its way out of place for their historical builds. It sure looks like some Buffet breed or stencil. As they had a fire, didnt produce horns for a while, and had a generally disrupted history, it makes sense that they might use Buffet to produce some of their bodies and/or horns. Its a nice looker, thats for sure. Hope it blows as well as it looks.

sax hut:
If it's a Paris-made Buffet horn, looks kinda transitional. Lots of SDA in the mix, including the lowered body 8ve pip location, but the low C# key assembly is pure single-key Dynaction, not the SDA linkage.

And it's just .... well .....so ...... shiny.

Saintsday:
It is silver plated with the original neck. You should have seen it when I first got it. It wasn't shiny then.

It was completely overhauled when I had it and although it is unlike any other Couesnon I've seen, I think it still has to be called a Couesnon, regardless of who else was involved in the manufacture.

bfoster64:
This Couesnon really puzzles me. I was looking closely at my SDA tenor and I noticed a few more things:

1. The left hand octave trigger key on the Couesnon is a little different in shape than the key on my SDA.

2. The music holder slot on my SDA is on the right side of the body near the top, but on the Couesnon it is on the left.

3. The horizontal rod that stretches between the G and G# keys on the Couesnon has the exact same distinctive shape as the rod on my SDA.

4. The control rods for the low B and Bb bell keys also look identical.

5. The bell-to-body brace on the Couesnon has the distinctive SDA shape.

I guess this really is some type of odd "franken-horn" created by Couesnon using a substantial amount of Buffet parts and almost certainly a Buffet body.

One thing is for sure, I have NEVER seen a "Couesnon" sax that looks like this one.


saintsday:
Amen, brother. I've had at least 30 or 40 Couesnons and I've never seen another one like this. I'm very curious to see what Soybean has to say about it.

sax-only:
What do you make of the bands at the joints between body/bow/bell? Buffet had two evenly spaced grooves running round them. These have two rows of dots, more like a Beaugnier. And the reinforcement at the bottom of the bow is oddly ornate as well: looks rather old-fashioned.

sax hut:
Joint connector rings and bow braces are a lot like keyguards and bell braces at the stencil assembly stage..... acoustically "irrelevant" frills, and fairly easy to substitute special-order versions and create a different look.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·








more photos to follow
 

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Soybean, we could easily post some photos of an SDA tenor and continue the physical comparison, but what we really need is your playtest review of the horn. If you could A/B it with a nice SDA tenor that would be even more interesting.
 

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A couple of other differences from my 1961 SDA:

The strap ring mounting is different

The thumb hook is held on by a screw (making it adjustable?)

The bow is different - the main body tube and the bell tube are much farther apart in the horn those pictures than on my SDA.

The rib on the palm Eb key is at at different angle

There is no guard over the rods for the bell keys, nor are there any mounting points for one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
we could easily post some photos of an SDA tenor and continue the physical comparison, but what we really need is your playtest review of the horn. If you could A/B it with a nice SDA tenor that would be even more interesting.
Fair enough. I will definitely review this after i get it in a few weeks. (It seems premature to review a horn in the first few days of owning it.) I've never played a Buffet tenor so it will be hard to compare. The only Buffet i have is an alto S1. If someone in the los Angeles area with a SDA wants to meet up, send me a PM. It would be great to hang out and compare. However, i will be able to compare this sax to Couesnon Monopoles of which i have owned 3 altos and 1 tenor. I've also owned some other French saxes like Beaugnier, SML, Selmer and Pierret.
 

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Ah-ha,
Just like I thought, an Evette Schaefer. I can tell by the thumb hook and the strap ring. Definately made in the buffet factory and probablt an evette schaefer master model. How does it play?
 

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Ah-ha,
Just like I thought, an Evette Schaefer. I can tell by the thumb hook and the strap ring. Definately made in the buffet factory and probablt an evette schaefer master model. How does it play?
That's what I'm thinking.
Look at the low C# mechanism.
The SDA has a different setup.

This horn looks almost identical to my Evette Schaeffer Master Model with the exception of the finish (mine is a honey sparkel), the strap hook (mine does not have the extra bottom section) and the bell brace (mine is a Buffet BC brace)

Edit: I also have a different thumbhook.
That bell brace looks a lot like an Evette Schaeffer as does the top portion of the bell engraving.
 

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I have the Buffet catalog from the 50's showing the SDA and E & S horns and their features in great detail. I don't have a clue how to post the scans, but I can E-mail them if you like.
 

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I recall that the later Evette models were not nearly as nice, and can be easily identified by the unrefined low C right hand pinky key. In contrast, this horn doesn't look very different in quality from a Dynaction or Superdynaction. I take it from the new comments that the early Evettes were very nice instruments in their own right.

Aren't there also "Master" models made by Buffet around the time of the transition from DA to SDA that are basically stencils of those horns? I recall seeing one of those on Ebay in an alto--it looked just like the "Olds Opera" stencils made by Buffet around the same time. The Master model alto and the Olds Opera altos I've spotted on Ebay were advertised as having the same flat metal screw-in resos that the SDAs are known for.

Is there a serial number on this horn?
 

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AD for a Buffet Dynaction tenor: http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=1229

A Dynaction tenor sold for $375, an E&S Dynaction tenor sold for $315.00, the Super Dynaction tenor listed as $425.00. A E&S Dynaction bari listed for $475.00, an SDA bari that looks like a Dynaction, in the ad spike421 posted, listed for $650.00.

It looks like the Dynaction became an E&S horn when the SDA was introduced. Mabey they just wanted to get rid of the Dynaction stock so the SDA could go head to head with the Mark VI.
 

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I haven't seen those catalog clippings before. Thanks for posting them.

Anybody else notice how the first generation SDA tenor in the ad still has the horizontal neck brace of the DA? I've never seen an SDA with that neck brace so it must have gotten phased out pretty soon after the introduction of the SDA.
 

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The catalog is from the middle to late 50's. I have seen one SDA with the brace, 10 years ago. A friend of mine inherited it from her brother and I sold it for her. I wish I'd bought it, now. Ah well, hindsight. Here's the cover page.
 

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I guess I got a real bargain all those years ago. $283 for the tenor in 1962 and $265 for the alto a couple of years later. The dealer said it was wholesale pricing - sounds like they were telling the truth, or close to it.:)
 

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I have to say that I can't agree that the E&S Master model is the same horn as an SDA.

The MAIN reason being the fact that they have different bodies.
It can not be said that the E&S was a blemished SDA that was re-badged since they have different bodies.

A possible THEORY might be that they still had Dynaction bodies left over when the SDA was introduced and they used the updated keywork on the old bodies (except for the low C#) and sold those as Master Models but that's just a guess with nothing to validate this theory.

I will say that The Master Model is an awesome horn with a big sound and I love mine so much that I don't even consider looking at another tenor.

Mine came (and still is) in the same brownish/orange case as the SDA with the Buffet logo on it.
 

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I learn something new every day around here!

BobbyC, can you elaborate on how you know the bodies of the Master models are different than the SDAs and, if you know, what the differences are?
 
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