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· Forum Contributor 2012, SOTW Saxophone Whisperer,
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So,

Every time I work on an old Buescher with snap in pads, I seem to re-visit thoughts about how I want to do it. Usually it stems from how the last guys did it.

I have over the years:

#1 - Just let the snap hold them in
#2 - Floated them with a small amount of shellac to give some small amount of floating ability - then installed the snap
#3 - Use a small bit of french cement to keep them from spinning - then intalled the snap.

How are you other SOTW tech's doing it these days? Just Curious as I have ANOTHER Buescher Repad job in front of me.

Thanks
Charlie
 

· Distinguished SOTW Technician
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I repadded an silver plated Buescher alto last year by floating the pads in on shellac as normal (after punching out the centres large enough to fit the backs of the resos), then snapping the resos in place, then checking to see if installing the resos had upset anything and pleased to see they didn't. I wasn't confident of snapping them in place dry (like flute pads) as there could be potential air leaks or they woudn't seal properly all the way around without any shellac in behind to support them.
 

· Forum Contributor 2012, SOTW Saxophone Whisperer,
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Simply use the snaps...that is why they were designed.
Adjustments via card sectors.
Never use "Gobbo".
Funny, I have seen different factory OEM Pads installed several different ways. The one that I am doing now has all original pads - and they had french cement holding them in place. I've seen others with nothing but the snap.

"how it was designed" doesn't necessary mean that it was a "good design" - thus my searching for input from others.

Thanks for the input guys - this is what I was looking for. - Keep it coming.

Charlie
 

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"how it was designed" doesn't necessary mean that it was a "good design" - thus my searching for input from others.

Charlie
Absolutely true...but the design was used over a long period....surely indicating that it was a good design.
Your example may well have original pads, but if it has "French cement" (whatever that is) then the pads, at some time, have been removed & the gunk applied then.....certainly not originally.
I have never had any trouble whatsoever in using the system as it was designed....ie. without shellac. To use shellac is to make life difficult for the next repairer who is able to set up the Buescher as designed.
I have two Bueschers with Snap-Ins & re-padded them both as intended. The first in 1995 & all the pads are still airtight.
Frankly, this question has risen it's head previously & I still fail to see why anyone would choose not to use the original system....it really is very easy, clean & burn free.
People talk of the pads "spinning"....I have asked previously but never received an answer to my question "What rotational forces are applied to pads?"
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2015-
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People talk of the pads "spinning"....I have asked previously but never received an answer to my question "What rotational forces are applied to pads?"
Must be coriolis effect. Don't you think?
 

· Forum Contributor 2012, SOTW Saxophone Whisperer,
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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Must be coriolis effect. Don't you think?
That would be a theoretical rotational force that would apply to pads. The question then becomes to what extent?

Absolutely true...but the design was used over a long period....surely indicating that it was a good design.
Your example may well have original pads, but if it has "French cement" (whatever that is) then the pads, at some time, have been removed & the gunk applied then.....certainly not originally.
I have never had any trouble whatsoever in using the system as it was designed....ie. without shellac. To use shellac is to make life difficult for the next repairer who is able to set up the Buescher as designed.
I have two Bueschers with Snap-Ins & re-padded them both as intended. The first in 1995 & all the pads are still airtight.
Frankly, this question has risen it's head previously & I still fail to see why anyone would choose not to use the original system....it really is very easy, clean & burn free.
People talk of the pads "spinning"....I have asked previously but never received an answer to my question "What rotational forces are applied to pads?"
This saxophone had EVERY pad french cemented in place. Agreed it could of been done long ago. But my gut always makes me wonder about pads spinning without something hold them in place. Using the "dollar pad trick" to wipe off a sticky pad would be an example of something that would cause a question in my mind. Agreed, in an ideal situation what you say is truly the best way. But there is also alot of what if's that make me wonder.

The snap doesn't seat securely.
Pad is on the brink of being too thin do when it is installed it seems fine then after a year or so and it compresses a bit it becomes TOO thin.

I fully admit that these are all "worry wart" things, but I will say your vote of confidence is certainly making me think about cleaning out these cups and going "au naturale".

Thanks for the food for thought

Charlie
 

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The pads in the sax I repadded had previously been installed with shellac which is much easier to remove compared to hot glue and any residues can be wiped away with alcohol, so cleaning the old shellac wasn't a problem. Plus having the pads glued in with shellac also ensures they remain flat as some pads simply won't lie flat on their own no matter how much you try - the shellac bonds them down to the pad cup and keeps them there.

I did test them by dry fitting with the reso snapped in and wasn't entirely happy, but I personally felt the 'belt and braces' approach was more reliable in the long term. I'd rather have a sax rebuilt to be a reliable one and returned to a pleased owner who I may not hear again from until its due for a service rather than having a disgruntled owner that has to bring it back everytime a pad loses its seat or comes adrift.

Due to the age of this sax and the amount of times it's been worked on in the past, some of the resos were at the point of fatigue so they could go at any moment - having the shellac there also made sure they stayed put if part of the collet gave up.
 

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Must be coriolis effect. Don't you think?
Nothing so esoteric...It simply means that someone has taken their Ferrari to be serviced at a good, but not specialist, repairer.
Every time repairers ask this same question about shellac on Snap-Ins they really must know the answer.
 

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IMHO the Buescher Snap design was a bad idea that should be allowed to finally die. Just grind out the studs and install modern pads with proper sized boosters in the normal way. The snap reso's always seemed undersized to me anyway!!! That having been said, I always leave the decision to use or not use the snaps up to the customer. Players seem to want modern pads with larger resos. Collectors seem to want original equipment.
 

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IMHO the Buescher Snap design was a bad idea that should be allowed to finally die. Just grind out the studs and install modern pads with proper sized boosters in the normal way. The snap reso's always seemed undersized to me anyway!!! That having been said, I always leave the decision to use or not use the snaps up to the customer. Players seem to want modern pads with larger resos. Collectors seem to want original equipment.
I imagine that your average customer is heavily biased in his decision by you....the expert; the repairer.
My sincere advice would be for you to avoid Bueschers & deal with horns that, for you, do not present such a challenge.
If we had adopted your philosophy in the 1960s all vintage Bugattis would be fitted with the much simpler Ford engines.
I am a "player" not a "collector" & it is incorrect of you to arbitrarily categorise....I am a player who likes his equipment to work well....& the Buescher Snap-In system works well..... for those who understand it.
This is the single saxophone topic which really winds me up....apologies if it shews.
To grind out the spuds is total, unequivocal, unmitigated vandalism. :evil:
 

· Distinguished SOTW Member/Forum Contributor 2009
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I use a modified vynil adehesive (the same I use for assemblying pads) very sparingly. Then snap. It takes me 6 bench hours from the horn ready to be padded to the horn fully regulated and finished. I usually give my snap customers 25% off due to how fast I am with snap in pads installation.
 

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I imagine that your average customer is heavily biased in his decision by you....the expert; the repairer.
My sincere advice would be for you to avoid Bueschers & deal with horns that, for you, do not present such a challenge.
If we had adopted your philosophy in the 1960s all vintage Bugattis would be fitted with the much simpler Ford engines.
I am a "player" not a "collector" & it is incorrect of you to arbitrarily categorise....I am a player who likes his equipment to work well....& the Buescher Snap-In system works well..... for those who understand it.
This is the single saxophone topic which really winds me up....apologies if it shews.
To grind out the spuds is total, unequivocal, unmitigated vandalism. :evil:
First of all BeeFlat, I am not "challenged" by any repair!!! Second, an expert's opinion should bias his customer. Sorry if my expert opinion doesn't agree with yours. Just curious, how many sax overhauls have you done? Just trying to determine if you qualify as an expert or an opinionated player???? If the Buescher snap design works so well, why do we always have this discussion of how to deal with it. And, if the Buescher Snap design (and Norton springs for that mattrer) are so great, why are they not used on ANY contemporary horns.
 

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First of all BeeFlat, I am not "challenged" by any repair!!! Second, an expert's opinion should bias his customer. Sorry if my expert opinion doesn't agree with yours. Just curious, how many sax overhauls have you done? Just trying to determine if you qualify as an expert or an opinionated player????
I really do not have to justify my skills to you....shall we just say that I am competent. Clearly more competent than a repairer who struggles with a relatively easy system.
If the Buescher snap design works so well, why do we always have this discussion of how to deal with it.
Simply because there are repairers out there, including you, who are able only to deal with the shellac system.
And, if the Buescher Snap design (and Norton springs for that mattrer) are so great, why are they not used on ANY contemporary horns.
1/ Cost.
2/ The inability of some repairers to accommodate the technology.
 

· Forum Contributor 2012, SOTW Saxophone Whisperer,
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
First of all BeeFlat, I am not "challenged" by any repair!!! Second, an expert's opinion should bias his customer. Sorry if my expert opinion doesn't agree with yours. Just curious, how many sax overhauls have you done? Just trying to determine if you qualify as an expert or an opinionated player???? If the Buescher snap design works so well, why do we always have this discussion of how to deal with it. And, if the Buescher Snap design (and Norton springs for that mattrer) are so great, why are they not used on ANY contemporary horns.
Wow - hold on guys - lets take a step back and take a breather.

We are indeed dealing in OPINIONS, and everybody is allowed to have one, even if it is different than the other's. I started this thread to see what others are currently doing when they encounter this situation, not to start a "red flag" provoking opinion argument.

So far, I can see the value of both sides of this argument and they both have valid points. Depending on the horn and who the customer is would depend how I handle it. Yes, I will admit that I have taken out studs before. I have left them in before as well.

This situation is a beautiful Aristocrat Tenor 285XXX - owned by a collector/player and without hesitation the snaps WILL remain.

So, back to my original question - how are you SOTW tech's installing these pads lately? Any new people care to chime in?

Charlie
 

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The snap doesn't seat securely.
Pad is on the brink of being too thin do when it is installed it seems fine then after a year or so and it compresses a bit it becomes TOO thin.
May I suggest cutting out a circle of card, with a central hole & positioning it under the aluminium back plate of the pad.

I fully admit that these are all "worry wart" things, but I will say your vote of confidence is certainly making me think about cleaning out these cups and going "au naturale".

Thanks for the food for thought

Charlie
Good man....... refreshing to find a tech who is not hide bound....one who is prepared to listen.
 

· Distinguished SOTW Columnist/Official SOTW Guru
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Yeah, it'd be nice to get back on topic. I have an Aristocrat Alto (27xxxx) that I want to re-pad once the school work is all done. I'd like to get more info on the various ins and outs of the job rather than the whys and why nots. Like Graysax, I'd like to leave this horn in its original condition with all the spuds intact, norton springs etc. I've just had some roo pads arrive from Curt and I'm very keen to pick up any and all tips before I begin.
 

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As Beeflat admitted, this topic twists his nickers. Mine too. I wish the two of us could stand over a Buescher sax repad in progress and discuss the reasons for our strong opinions. And then go out and have a double shot of a good single malt! I guess we have to agree to disagree. To cast stones about someones skills serves no purpose. That having been said, I love old Bueschers, just not the Snap pads system. Just one opinion.
 
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