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Discussion Starter #1
If there is a Buescher Lacquer Specialist around please give me some advice

cadences in france has a nice Buescher aristocrat tenor for sale

FOr original Lacquer it would be a good price for a relac. not

please some advice


http://www.cadencesmusic.com/used_saxos_fr.php
 

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IMHO (I'm not a specialist nor an expert, I just have a lot of experience on bueschers) It's either original lacquer OR a first lacquer factory job (OEM lacquer started to be marketed over the Aristo I production range, many horns were issued as bare brass and after an indefinite amount of years of service as bare brass they may have returned to the factory for a complete overhaul including lacquer)
 

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Based on the rather small photos, my vote goes for very well done relacquer. The color is beautiful! The engraving looks lightly buffed and unusually for these horns the lacquer around the denser engraving hasn't begun to flake off. The edges of the keys and post feet look sharp, and the horn looks good overall. Most telling will be whether there is play in the keys.

This is a most unusual looking horn for what it is, and I would not buy it without being able to get a good tech's through in-hand opinion. Perhaps they have a 3 day trial period or something similar?
 

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Any chance that horn is silver-plated? It's hard to tell from the photos. Could be silver plate if there is some coppery reflective lighting going on or something like that. Looks like a very nice horn, but why not call them and get some more info?
 

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It's not unusual looking at all from my experience. I've owned three of these--all original--and all had that same aged copper-tinted finish as someone described it. If this is relac, it's a very old one, and since the engraving does NOT look buffed to me at all, I would second the theory of a first lacquer job over bare brass.

However, it could be original as well; for as someone pointed out in another recent thread, photos don't tell the whole story, and sometimes you really need the horn in hand to know for sure.

At the end of the day, whether it's a relac or original is not as critical with these horns as it is with a Mark VI, where if you're not careful you can lose thousands of dollars if you're wrong. But these horns are not pricey to begin with, so what's more important here is that the horn was not buffed, and in this case it does not look like it was.
 

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Where's Jason Dumars when you need him? :) Seriously, without being able to actually feel the surface with your fingers, it is difficult to tell from just a photograph. Another observation is that each successive coat of lacquer tends to "fill in" the indentations of the engraving even when there has been no buffing to that area whatever.
 

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Just seemed to have that dotted look to the engraving if judging by the pictures alone:


Personally I consider a first lacquer job over bare brass to be original lacquer, especially if the job dates to the time period as this one appears to. And that's what I have concluded this is--an old lacquer job that may not have been factory but the first one nonetheless.

Again, to me the important issue with these relatively low-priced horns w/o a lot of collector value and valued in the $1,000 to $1,500 range is that they have not been buffed, and this one does not look like it has.

:soapbox: Having said that, I realize that a certain someone who used to be a member of his forum is single-handedly trying to inflate the price of these Series I's on ebay with his "sticker-shock" Buy-It-Nows. However, you will notice that none of them are selling at those absurd prices and Thank God as all three of the ones I bought were in the $1,200 range and in very nice shape.

Lastly, with this in mind, it's very perplexing to me why another certain someone and his followers are so keen on trying to prop up the Buescher brand to cultlike status--almost to the point of looking like an inferiority complex and/or a reaction against Selmer worship. All you're succeeding in doing is ensuring that the prices go higher (e.g., I noticed in the last month or so that worldwidesax.com sold nearly all of his Aristo tenors, some of which were on his site for years). I have decided it's best not to hype horns on here that I'm interested in because there really is a SOTW Effect. When things are hyped on here, from New Vintage Slants to you name it, there is a definite effect in the market because most folks really are like sheep when you come right down to it (BTW whatever happened to the NVS's? Insert Bunker Hill music here).

And since most of the hobbyists on here really can't play all that well, many of them have not yet learned that that next "latest greatest" piece of gear that is all abuzz on here is not going to make them sound any better though they try to kid themselves that it will by trying out horn after horn and mouthpiece after mouthpiece. Heck, as long as they're having fun, more power to 'em.

But I digress. These horns are nice, but they're not my first pick for jazz playing. They are just too dark and bassoony sounding in the low register. I think that's one of the reasons Sonny eventually ditched his. TTTT I never thought he sounded that great on his Big B on the Alfie stuff, etc., and that this bassoony quality was plain as day. I also hear it in Shorter's sound in the early '60s when he was playing a Buescher Bundy and think he sounded better after he swtiched back to a VI.

Well, that's my rant for the day. If you're going to pick one of these up and have never played one, keep in mind that they were designed to play classical music; and if you have no experience with one and intend to play jazz with it, you may be surprised at how very dark and "double-reed-like" they sound. And IMHO they also lack that "ring" that many crave for jazz that the vintage Selmer and King horns have.

Now because of these aforementioned qualities, I think they can also be great horns for blues playing--just not Jazz.

So how's that for my attempt to start bringing the prices on these back down to normal? :bluewink:
 

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Personally I consider a first lacquer job over bare brass to be original lacquer
Which is confusing, so I generally just consider it a refinished horn; whether it was the run of the mill relacquer, or these alleged factory first-lacquers (which I suppose were probably more rare in comparison). If describing a saxophone as having original lacquer, it should mean it came that way originally.
 

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up until WWII (after WWII finished even the victorious american factories was devastated due to the war effort) sending your horn back to the factory where it came from was a common practice. Buescher's sales representative down here had more of just a couple of horns destined to customers whom wanted their horns rebuilt. They just shipped the horns up there and down here again. If this was a common practice down here I can imagine that living in the states would have rendered the factory rebuild even more reasonable and practical. They (sales representative in Buenos Aires) did the average repad or regulation, but if the customer wanted the horn "as new" they just shipped it up there. He also said that up to the 70's, most pro players used to have their horns refinished with every overhaul. They took pride in having a good horn and keep it shiny and new.

The same source that told me that also told me that relacquers shouldn't have the FR stamp. He said that FR meant factory refinish (or refurbish) and since lacquer wasn't considered a permanent finish at the time (I still have more than one of those cards warning about lacquer not being a permanent finish), that should apply only to replating done at the factory, or plating an originally bare brass horn.
 

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This horn does look to have been buffed, at least mildly, and it's a wierd color for a Buescher -- lighting not withstanding. First lacquer perhaps, but certainly isn't original.

Does it matter? Not in my mind, and certainly not from a mechanical perspective if it this is all the buffing we're talking about -- which is really all that matters from a playing perspective. How does it play and are you planning on collecting it or playing it.
 

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Personally I consider a first lacquer job over bare brass to be original lacquer, especially if the job dates to the time period as this one appears to. And that's what I have concluded this is--an old lacquer job that may not have been factory but the first one nonetheless.

Again, to me the important issue with these relatively low-priced horns w/o a lot of collector value and valued in the $1,000 to $1,500 range is that they have not been buffed, and this one does not look like it has.

:soapbox: Having said that, I realize that a certain someone who used to be a member of his forum is single-handedly trying to inflate the price of these Series I's on ebay with his "sticker-shock" Buy-It-Nows. However, you will notice that none of them are selling at those absurd prices and Thank God as all three of the ones I bought were in the $1,200 range and in very nice shape.

Lastly, with this in mind, it's very perplexing to me why another certain someone and his followers are so keen on trying to prop up the Buescher brand to cultlike status--almost to the point of looking like an inferiority complex an/or a reaction against Selmer worship. All you're succeeding in doing is ensuring that the prices go higher (e.g., I noticed in the last month or so that worldwidesax.com sold nearly all of his Aristo tenors, some of which were on his site for years). I have decided it's best not to hype horns on here that I'm interested in because there really is a SOTW Effect. When things are hyped on here, from New Vintage Slants to you name it, there is a definite effect in the market because most folks really are like sheep when you come right down to it (BTW whatever happened to the NVS's? Insert Bunker Hill music here).

And since most of the hobbyists on here really can't play all that well, many of them have not yet learned that that next "latest greatest" piece of gear that is all abuzz on here is not going to make them sound any better though they try to kid themselves that it will by trying out horn after horn and mouthpiece after mouthpiece. Heck, as long as they're having fun, more power to 'em.

But I digress. These horns are nice, but they're not my first pick for jazz playing. They are just too dark and bassoony sounding in the low register. I think that's one of the reasons Sonny eventually ditched his. TTTT I always thought he sounded kind of crappy on his Big B on the Alfie stuff, etc., and that this bassoony quality was plain as day. I also hear it in Shorter's sound in the early '60s when he was playing a Buescher Bundy and think his sound is much better after he switched back to a VI.

Well, that's my rant for the day. If you're going to pick one of these up and have never played one, keep in mind that they were designed to play classical music, and if you have no experience with one and intend to play jazz with one, you may be surprised at how very dark and "double-reed-like" they sound. And IMHO they also lack that "ring" that many crave for jazz that the vintage Selmer and King horns have.

Now because of these aforementioned qualities I think they can also be great horns for blues playing--just not for Jazz.

So how's that for my attempt to start to bring the prices on these back down to normal? :bluewink:
Pick up a copy of Ike Quebec and tell me he sounds like he's playing a bassoon. Joe Lovano as well (on Youtube). No question that they start off darker than a Selmud, but the tone is far more focused and clear. Most of us play these for the tone, not the ergos, and few "players" actually flip them once they get past the hype of the common collector horn. If you sound like you're playing a bassoon on one, then perhaps the issue isn't with the horn.

And what's with the not-so-veiled personal attacks on people? Did this make you feel better?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
THANKS for all the advice !
I know the Aristocrats S1 are darker then Selmer ! And I think there is no Hype on Bueschers !
I just wondered about that copper lacquer color which I never saw, sometimes photos give a wrong copy of the reality they are just a reproduction
 

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Well, that's my rant for the day. If you're going to pick one of these up and have never played one, keep in mind that they were designed to play classical music,.....

They were? Where did you read that?

EDIT: Supersonic, whatever it is (original or not) I suggest you try the horn out. It certainly looks great. Maybe it's the perfect horn for you. Maybe not. Until you play it you will never know.
 

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Supersonic, there's more than just "one" Aristo I and II that looks strangely "coppery" those I and early B's have a softer metal, wich in brass means lower zinc and higher copper content. My gut feel is that the horn you're coveting is either original lacquer (based on the engraving... softer brass on this horns buffs away like warm butter) or it was issued as bare brass and lacquered shortly after that. There's no way in wich the heavy handed buffing those horns withstanded when relacquered would not have erased certain engraving details.
 

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Supersonic, there's more than just "one" Aristo I and II that looks strangely "coppery" those I and early B's have a softer metal, wich in brass means lower zinc and higher copper content. My gut feel is that the horn you're coveting is either original lacquer (based on the engraving... softer brass on this horns buffs away like warm butter) or it was issued as bare brass and lacquered shortly after that. There's no way in wich the heavy handed buffing those horns withstanded when relacquered would not have erased certain engraving details.
+1

I agree that this horn does not appear to have been buffed--which is what really matters when you're discussing relacs. And I don't have to read about these horns to know about them. If you read my earlier posts I have owned no less than 3 Series I tenors. All had original lacquer as confirmed by my tech, and all had a slightly more reddish tint to them just like this horn has. To me it's far more reckless to look at photos of a horn that you have little to no experience with and write on an informational forum, "Gee, that horn sure looks unusual." :tsk:

But I'm curious, Madennma, how many original lacquer Series I's have you owned? I see your Series I alto is silver-plated so yeah, I suppose a lacquered example might look a little wierd [SIC] to you. :bluewink:
 

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up until WWII (after WWII finished even the victorious american factories was devastated due to the war effort) sending your horn back to the factory where it came from was a common practice.
Yeah, but afterwards it became more and more common to have your horn relacquered as a matter of course when overhauled at your typical shop throughout the 50's-70's when it came due. Was just figuring that these later refinishing jobs would outnumber the former factory jobs with what's remaining on the market. Too many sellers probably rely upon the old factory relacquer puffery to sell horns, and hence my skepticism with the term.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Its a great looking horn ! so if its original or not is not such a big problem - to be honest I am a little "infected" with that original lac. or relac. "desease" !!
Here in europe people are not so "crazy" about that - I play a SBA relacquered I couldnt afford a original lac SBA and I wouldnt like it
OK I dont want to play any vintage horn with a new "yamaha- looking" lac. but in most cases a good relacquer is OK if it doesnt look really bad
 
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