Sax on the Web Forum banner
1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,967 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hello all...just wondering if anyone knows about the series1 aristocrat bari's...i know and love the alto's and tenors,and usually the serial# range is between #270,000 and 295,000....
this one has a serial#14543 and has no true-tone patent info near that....keyed to high F....

are these bari's great players like the smaller saxophones are and what do you think about this serial#....

any help or info is greatly appreciated
photos attached.....

View attachment 68743 View attachment 68744 View attachment 68745 View attachment 68746 View attachment 68747 ....

cheers,philip
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
That's a really old girl. Serial number isn't the oddball fact on this horn. The earliest ones didn't have the curved number and the TT logo was on the bell. It looks to me like a Buescher 129 bari from the 1910's, and that serial number puts it around 1911-12.

It's the 1930's art deco Aristocrat engraving on the bell that's odd. As far as I know, there weren't any engraved that way even in the '30's. There should be a floral engraving pattern with the True Tone triangle and tuning fork on the front of the bell for that serial number range.

As a working theory, it strikes me as possible that it had been relacquered so many times that someone decided to put the Aristocrat engraving on it, since what had been there had likely been buffed completely off and they liked the look of the "new" engraving. It's also quite possible that this was done by Buescher themselves when the horn was sent in for reconditioning. It's also possible that this was a stencil horn from the '20's for another brand (the list is long, but BIC is certainly possible) and someone chose to have it re-engraved as an Aristocrat. In that case, the serial number wouldn't have to match the Buescher sequence, and it wouldn't have the TT logo. Finally parts of the horn could have been replaced or added on to it over its 100 years of history. The earliest ones would have been keyed to Eb3, but since the alto and tenors went to F3, this could be just an early one that's keyed that high, or the E3 and F3 were added on later.

So, not a lot of answers. It's a Buescher made horn. Could have been as early as 1910, but no later than the early '30's and then only as a stencil. It's not, however, an Aristocrat per se.
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
1,910 Posts
That is odd. There are a lot of contradictory things about that horn. The split bell remained well into the '30s, but I didn't think there were any Aristocrat era baris that would retain the pearl G#. And didn't they have a front F? Maddemna knows a lot about the Buescher baris, maybe he's got a clue.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
You know, the more I look at this thing, the more likely it seems to me to be a EBIC horn (Elkhart Band Instrument Company, aka Elkhart by Buescher) horn from the late '20's, maybe as late as 1931-32.

The neck octave key is characteristic of the 129's from the late 20's until about 1958, which means that the octave mechanism (that you don't have a picture of) can't be from the 1910's. Also, look at the springs. Can't see them well enough in your pictures, but if they don't screw in, they don't match the engraving on the bell.

Given that there's no TT logo on it and the serial number doesn't jibe with the octave mechanism, my bet is that it's an EBIC stencil horn someone had engraved as an Aristocrat later in its life to pass it off as a Buescher branded horn. Norton springs would certainly compound the mystery though.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
That is odd. There are a lot of contradictory things about that horn. The split bell remained well into the '30s, but I didn't think there were any Aristocrat era baris that would retain the pearl G#. And didn't they have a front F? Maddemna knows a lot about the Buescher baris, maybe he's got a clue.
Split bell on the 129 remained all the way to 1941. Pearl G# on the Buescher branded horns went the way of the Dodo bird in the early mid-20's, but remained on stencil horns well into the early 30's. Front F was common on the Buescher horns beginning in the late 20's (earlier examples appear to exist) and ubiquitous by 1932, but stencils may or may not have had one as late as 1940.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
I'm with Maddenma on this. The flanges on the low Bb guard looks EBIC to me. The low C key guard doesn't but it also doesn't look original. I don't know the term but the band were the bell solders to the bow also looks EBIC to me. Quite an interesting horn.

It wouldn't be provable but wouldn't it be cool if someone in the 30s sent in a EBIC bari with a destroyed bell to be rebuilt. Buescher grabbed an un-engraved True Tone Bell, put it on, and then added the then current engraving to it?
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
It wouldn't be provable but wouldn't it be cool if someone in the 30s sent in a EBIC bari with a destroyed bell to be rebuilt. Buescher grabbed an un-engraved True Tone Bell, put it on, and then added the then current engraving to it?
That was the other thing I was thinking of.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
You know, the more I look at this thing, the more likely it seems to me to be a EBIC horn (Elkhart Band Instrument Company, aka Elkhart by Buescher) horn from the late '20's, maybe as late as 1931-32.

The neck octave key is characteristic of the 129's from the late 20's until about 1958, which means that the octave mechanism (that you don't have a picture of) can't be from the 1910's. Also, look at the springs. Can't see them well enough in your pictures, but if they don't screw in, they don't match the engraving on the bell.

Given that there's no TT logo on it and the serial number doesn't jibe with the octave mechanism, my bet is that it's an EBIC stencil horn someone had engraved as an Aristocrat later in its life to pass it off as a Buescher branded horn. Norton springs would certainly compound the mystery though.
Elkhart Band Instrument Company was my thought, too. Did that company also use Buecher engraving, or this may be a replacement bell?
 

·
Distinguished SOTW Member
Joined
·
1,910 Posts
The springs I see don't look like Nortons.

Maddemna, was there ever a "New Aristocrat" intermediate phase in the baris where you see the G# table with the crescent G# touch but the C# / Bb touches are extended?

I've gotten the impression that the only real change to the baris in and around the "New Aristocrat" period was to their keywork with the addition of Nortons etc, so by the time "Aristocrat" engraved horns appeared, they were just True-Tones with improved keywork. I know the model # stayed the same right into the '50s.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
136 Posts
Are those snap on resonators or are my eyes playing tricks on me? If it is this is one interesting bird.
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
Did that company also use Buecher engraving...
No.

Maddemna, was there ever a "New Aristocrat" intermediate phase in the baris where you see the G# table with the crescent G# touch but the C# / Bb touches are extended?
The 129 had a variation of the New Aristocrat era pinky table as soon as the NA came out, as it did for the alto and tenor. It retained that until the 129 was discontinued. I've seen a picture of a horn from from as late as 1955 that had a crescent G# and another of a rectangular G# as early as 1940.

One of the things I've come to rely on regarding Buescher's baris is never say "never".

I've gotten the impression that the only real change to the baris in and around the "New Aristocrat" period was to their keywork with the addition of Nortons etc, so by the time "Aristocrat" engraved horns appeared, they were just True-Tones with improved keywork. I know the model # stayed the same right into the '50s.
Not only that, they kept the floral engraving all the way to 1940 when they changed everything to the Big B engraving. There were no Buescher baris I've seen that had the "series 1" art deco engraving on them.

i will take another look to see if the bell has been replaced...
no norton springs....
thanks,philip
Let me know, but even if it hasn't been, that doesn't mean that it wasn't re-engraved with a different pattern.

The octave touch piece is circa 1910-20 key work. The rest of the mechanism (and the neck) appears to be from after 1920.

Are those snap on resonators or are my eyes playing tricks on me? If it is this is one interesting bird.
Those do indeed appear to be Snap-On pads that an EBIC horn would not have had unless they were retrofitted.

This entire horn is showing all the signs of a Frankenhorn.

Johnny Cash had a song about that...

 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,967 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
yes,they are snap-in resonators.....
bell doesn't look to be replaced,and all,maybe the lowC# guard as it has diamond feet,....... everything else is oval on this horn....
would it be worth restoring,as it need a bit of work?
value on something like this?as-is?
cheers,philip
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts
Hard to say. Pretty much any playing Buescher bari is worth at least $1200. Definitely Frankenhorn, so I wouldn't place a higher value on it myself, but others may differ.

Doesn't have a front F. Might as well add it while you're at it. You're not going to take away from its originality.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,967 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
i don't do many modifications,i'll let a buyer sort that out....
thanks for all your interesting info on these.....
cheers,philip
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
I know, old thread but....I'm the buyer and "Frankie" (the frankenhorn) is currently in pieces on my bench.
The neck isn't original as the key is nickle plate and nothing else is.
Has Snap on pads that appear to be original - all snaps are present.
Most of the dents are now out and will order pads soon.
Any thoughts on what to use. I am looking at the Music Medic Sax Gourmet with Buescher holes but these don't have the metal backs that are on the pads that are it it at the moment.

David...
 

·
Indistinguishable Resident Buescher Bigot and Foru
Joined
·
8,588 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
110 Posts
Thanks Maddenma,
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top