[klookmop]

Hi, I just gifted a friend a Buescher 400 tenor for her birthday. Based on the serial # it seems to be a 60s pre Selmer horn. However, when I research these horns I'm only seeing pics of an underslung neck. This neck is obviously not underslung, is it not original?
Thanks,
Mk

 

[1saxman]

That's a pre-Selmer Buescher. I don't know about the neck, but it looks authentic even though its not underslung. The Selmer Buescher had LH-side bell keys, not backside of bell. Consequently it had an elaborate nickel-plated wire key guard on the LH side.

 

[JayeLID]

Not sure it is a pre-Selmer., tho. My understanding is that the Buescher to Selmer thing occurred somewhere at around 380,XXX or so. That horn looks later (?)

These are the 400's which are post-THC horns, according to some Boosh aficionados they are basically Aristocrats...but perhaps not 100%.

Also not certain you can use the backside bellkeys as a yardstick for whether Boosh or Selmer, since that detail seems to have survived well into the 500,XXX horns....

It is a 'Series 3' as it has been called, and most Series 3's indeed had an underslung. But here are some with a standard overslung (basically same neck they used on their 'Crats and Bundy's).

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=2576

http://saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=6462

So looks like at around 485,XXX they switched from under to conventional neck...so if your serial is in that area or above - it might be the original neck.....or if it is below, then it might be a Bundy neck. Doesn't much matter as these would work fine on a later 400....

 

[lostcircuits]

Hmm. the serial number is 360xxx and the transition from Buescher to Selmer took place somewhere between 360 and 380 as you already pointed out so this looks like a pre-Selmer, just based on the SN. My '51 series 3 has a conventional neck, same "oval" curvature as the one shown in the OP pictures but without the extra brace.

 

[ZootTheSim]

That's an S-25. According to Buescher afficionado jicaino, this pre-buyout model came between the 157 and the S-33. It may not be a TH&C, but I bet it's a ripping great horn.

After failing to promote the 400's to the top shelf level, and having to keep the aristocrat, things start to get fuzzy. For not having been a sales success I'd bet that 400's was a really expensive horn to make. They started to cut costs and compromise ideals. That resulted in the super 400, then degenerated into the 141/157 horns, then in the S-5/S-25 400's.

Last Buescher Aristocrat (genuine Buescher Parts assembled by the Buescher staff) were the S-33 altos and corresponding tenors. Aristo 156/140 bodies, nickel keywork. Vertical Buescher horizontal Aristocrat plain engraving.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?127110-Buescher-Models-Question

 

[whaler]

Hmm. the serial number is 360xxx and the transition from Buescher to Selmer took place somewhere between 360 and 380 as you already pointed out so this looks like a pre-Selmer, just based on the SN. My '51 series 3 has a conventional neck, same "oval" curvature as the one shown in the OP pictures but without the extra brace.

View attachment 251034

Your ligature is on up-side down. I'm left handed and it still looks wrong.

 

[lostcircuits]

Your ligature is on up-side down. I'm left handed and it still looks wrong.

It's the only way it fits and it lines up perfectly with the lig marking on the MPC, If I rotate it, it lines up with an angle and the screws are too short to make contact with the other side.

 

[1saxman]

You would have to invert the lig to have the screw heads on the RH side. BTW, there is no 'wrong' for a ligature as long as it does what its supposed to and you like it.

'Also not certain you can use the backside bellkeys as a yardstick for whether Boosh or Selmer, since that detail seems to have survived well into the 500,XXX horns....'

Must be some serial-number hockey going on - I had one of the first Selmer 400s (bought in Spring, '64) and it was as I said. No way did they later change everything so they could make some with bell-back keys. I could easier believe that they used some leftover horns at the very first but I don't have any reason to think they did. The horns would be so different that the question of parts, etc., comes into play - not the usual way Selmer USA did things in those days.

 

[mijderf]

Here is a photo of another 360XXX Buescher 400 tenor, and shows the same neck you have. http://www.saxpics.com/?v=gal&a=6456

 

[klookmop]

Lotsa good info folks, thanks.
It IS a ripping good horn, my friend who I gave it too normally plays a series III TT alto, & she loves this tenor. Quite different than a TT but very nice.
Mk

 

[klookmop]

One more thing, value.
I got this horn from a friend whom I'm doing a work trade for (bass clarinet overhaul).
The price for these varies widely on Ebay.
What's a good ballpark price for value?
Gold Norton springs, no large dents or damage, original snap in pads.
It plays but I plan on overhauling it in the near future.
Thanks,
Mk

 

[jgreiner]

It's the only way it fits and it lines up perfectly with the lig marking on the MPC, If I rotate it, it lines up with an angle and the screws are too short to make contact with the other side.

Screws should be on top and the heads to the right. It'll fit perfectly that way. Yes, if you just "flip" it and still have the screws on the bottom, it won't fit. Trust me. ;-)

 

[lostcircuits]

Of course, except that it won't work :evil::evil:

 

[click]

I was told by my band instructor back in the day that all ligs are designed to be tightened up with the right hand.

Inverted ligs have the screws on top and to the right.

Regular ligs have the screws on the bottom and to the right.

I think this is b/c the makers assume that the player will be adjusting the reed with the left hand and tightening the screws with the right.

However, since then I have come to the conclusion that regardless of the intended use or design, practically anything that holds the reed to the table properly will work fine.

Furthermore, some ligs seem to work just fine if the screws are put into the opposite side first.

So, if you wanted, a person could have one screw to tighten with the left hand and one screw to tighten with the right hand, and something to talk about with the section mates!

 

[lostcircuits]

I was told by my band instructor back in the day that all ligs are designed to be tightened up with the right hand.

Inverted ligs have the screws on top and to the right.

Regular ligs have the screws on the bottom and to the right.

I think this is b/c the makers assume that the player will be adjusting the reed with the left hand and tightening the screws with the right.

However, since then I have come to the conclusion that regardless of the intended use or design, practically anything that holds the reed to the table properly will work fine.

Furthermore, some ligs seem to work just fine if the screws are put into the opposite side first.

So, if you wanted, a person could have one screw to tighten with the left hand and one screw to tighten with the right hand, and something to talk about with the section mates!

I agree, in this particular case. which is actually an original Brillhart ligature on the Streamline, the screws on top doesn't work because they are too short. The reed will add just enough to the circumference that the ligature, which no longer is flush with the MPC would have to stick over the duck bill, and that wouldn't be very playable.

 

[JayeLID]

Interesting that they used a conventional neck at start of the III's, all the way up to the 380,000's (had I looked more closely)...then switched to underslung for 5 or 6 years, then went back again to conventional neck at around 485,000....

 

[jgreiner]

Of course, except that it won't work :evil::evil:

View attachment 251336 View attachment 251338

View attachment 251340 View attachment 251342

Because you have the lig bent in the screw area to conform to the reed shape and not where it should conform to the reed shape which is the plate opposite of the screws. In my 40+ yrs of playing this thing and seeing ENDLESS ligatures, I've NEVER seen a lig that is a LH screw (top or bottom)..........EVER. Furthermore, those are not the original screws and most likely shorter. That's also pretty obvious. Don't know what else to tell ya.

 

[lostcircuits]

This is turning into a Don Quixote argument Bottom line is that it works for me as shown and I have enough dexterity in my left hand (what a paradox!), so I don't see a reason to bend a perfectly fine ligature. And if I run into a problem, I just stand in front of a mirror:

 

[ZootTheSim]

What's a good ballpark price for value? Gold Norton springs, no large dents or damage, original snap in pads.

Glad your friend likes it! Needless to say, it's a very nice gift, which makes it invaluable.

As for monetary value, I'd also be interested to know. My sense is that, though rare, they're still undervalued due to the post-buyout chill. Regardless, there are lots of testimonials on the Forum to the virtues of late 400s.

Interesting that they used a conventional neck at start of the III's, all the way up to the 380,000's (had I looked more closely)...then switched to underslung for 5 or 6 years, then went back again to conventional neck at around 485,000....

Yes, very. Did they find a spare box of old underslungs in the stock room maybe?

 

[JayeLID]

As for monetary value, I'd also be interested to know. My sense is that, though rare, they're still undervalued due to the post-buyout chill. Regardless, there are lots of testimonials on the Forum to the virtues of late 400s.

I have refurbed a couple of post THC 400 Altos with the back bell keys in and around this serial period ...and honestly, they were shockingly GOOD.
I mean I expected the keywork to be clunkier and less responsive and the blowing response to have been negatively effected....sort of the difference between an earlier 'Crat and the S-33's is what I had in my mind.

Indeed they were NOT THC body specs (although interestingly thanks to some data provided by Maddenma, neither were they straight-up Aristocrat body specs as you sometimes hear they are).

They were actually great playing horns.

If memory serves the Altos could fetch only around $650-700 however, completely overhauled.
The Tenors of this period, in playing shape, I have never seen sell for more than $1g and I think in most instances that would require some patience on seller's part to get. Project ones I have seen tended to stay under $500.

If the Tenor is as good as the Altos are, then they are serious sleepers as well.