[xax]

I've read, heard and surmised that Coltrane, Brecker, Stitt etc, had horns that were just better from the git go than what the rest of us could get our grimy little mitts on... Likewise, I've heard that some players' horns were constantly in such a state that mere mortals and even other great players could barely make the horn speak. IIRC I heard that about Lockjaw Davis' tenor.

Anyone have evidence to support/discredit any of this...especially by having played one?

 

[rcpayne]

A friend of mine bought a soprano that had belonged to Wayne Shorter. He sad the horn was a dog but he really liked the case because of all the stickers from traveling so he kept the case and sold the soprano.

 

[andre251]

Birds first saxophone had to be held sideways to work and had a lot of other issues.
I think it is better to say
“Brand name players...just better work ethic than the rest”

 

[10mfan]

So much folklore that gets passed around here with horns and mpcs, etc....
Really hard to know what the truth REALLY is.

 

[1saxman]

Some players are able to be more discerning when choosing a sax because of the level of their experience/artistry. Saxophones are not created equal but it is also true that most any sax can be made better by a good tech. Its just that when you're trying a dozen tenors, you simply pass over the ones that don't blow for you. I believe it is certainly true that great players gravitate to great horns. Selmer used to grade their saxes when they were finished in Elkhart into A,B and C categories. The A's were reserved for Selmer Artists so there would be very few of those held back. B's were designated for the major outlets like New York and LA, and C's were sent to the regular music stores. Many B's were as good as A's because they would only hold back a few for artist use, and this 'trickle down' effect also made many C's as good as B's simply because the major outlets took only a few horns while the largest group needing horns was the everyday music store by far.
I've even culled saxes that friends wanted me to get for their kids by playing them and accepting or returning so the kid would at least know the sax wasn't the problem. I would even play the horn on a gig and have the parent there to hear that it was sufficient.

I think anybody can find a great horn if they only know one when they find it. OTOH, great players do tend to get the most out of any horn so that is another factor.

 

[Reet McVouty]

I've read, heard and surmised that Coltrane, Brecker, Stitt et al had horns that were just better from the git go than what the rest of us could get our grimy little mitts on... Likewise, I've heard that some players' horns were constantly in such that mere mortals and even other great players could barely make the horn speak. IIRC I heard that about Lockjaw Davis' tenor.

Anyone have evidence to support/discredit any of this...especially by having played one?

I have read a lot of jazz biographies and don't recall reading anything that supports your statement. I think most of these players went through several horns before they settled in to one particular horn. I'm sure there are some exceptions like Lou Donaldson who's played his Mark VI since the time he first got it. But I think these pros are pretty much like the rest of us mere mortals, that is to say they like to try new things. Michael Brecker for instance was always checking out new mouthpieces. Coltrane played on both a BA and SBA before his MK VI.

 

[AddictedToSax]

Anyone remember the picture of Brecker's sax with a big metal patch soldered on it under the the thumb rest? That sax was played to death. Probably the player not the horn. Bird sounded great on a plastic Grafton.

 

[Pete Thomas]

I've read, heard and surmised that Coltrane, Brecker, Stitt et al had horns that were just better from the git go than what the rest of us could get our grimy little mitts on

Where did you read that? I thought I'd heard all the myths, but seemingly not.

 

[datsaxman]

Pete, that is a very popular myth. The pros get the really great stuff. There must be a secret stash.

Or ... They play a bunch of horns back to back and pick the one they like.
Which is likely to be the one that is set up the best.

 

[JayeLID]

Well, you know...I have no clue whether there is a modicum of truth behind it or not...but it isn't quite as ridiculous as some are making it seem.

I mean, a company would love to have a giant player as an endorser, whether official or not. So if the company, or one of their authorized dealers or such, was approached by the giant, it wouldn't be going out on much of a limb to say the company would probably go to a certain extent to provide that player with what they consider the best examples of what they produce.

I have hear this from two players who, while in France, visited the Selmer factory:

Both were told by folks working there "well, the best ones aren't here, they were sent to store-so-and-so", or the like....naming the shops which have the rep for getting the best Selmers....

"Secret Stash" ? No need to put it in those terms. But is the notion that... in a factory, while playtesting, certain units are identified which seem to just 'have it' ?....that silly ? It seems quite feasible, to me....

So the notion isn't that odd, really....

 

[JayeLID]

Birds first saxophone had to be held sideways to work and had a lot of other issues.
I think it is better to say
"Brand name players...just better work ethic than the rest"

Well....since the guy would hock his horns constantly...perhaps not the best example to use in this instance....

 

[datsaxman]

It sure is curious to use Selmer as the (sort of obvious) example here.

Selmers famously need extensive setup at the dealer, yes?
I expect this to mean that the saxes are not set up yet for the end user while they are in Paris.

So ... how do the factory folks know which ones are the good ones? Whether that is for a preferred store or a special customer.

Without knowing, I imagine the factory folks just pick a few that look perfect, have their techs set them up, and the player tries and picks.

How does this really work? Who has been there and picked a sax at the Selmer Paris factory?

 

[rcpayne]

And besides, my grimy little mitts aren't that grimy because I've been washing them a lot lately. I suspect that the greats weren't that preoccupied with equipment, they no doubt looked for the horn that suited them best. But I don't see how that translates into only the greats had really great horns. And is there really such a thing as that magical saxophone that is just amazingly better than all its kin? That sort of thing is all subjective anyway. There are different designs with different compromises as all designs are made up of compromises. Some compromises suit some players better than others. That doesn't mean a few players have the "best ever" monster saxophone, it means, if anything, they have the horn that suits them best.

 

[Lambros]

So much folklore that gets passed around here with horns and mpcs, etc....
Really hard to know what the truth REALLY is.

you said it brother! Things can get pretty weird 'round here...

 

[Rackety Sax]

It sure is curious to use Selmer as the (sort of obvious) example here.

Selmers famously need extensive setup at the dealer, yes?
I expect this to mean that the saxes are not set up yet for the end user while they are in Paris.

So ... how do the factory folks know which ones are the good ones? Whether that is for a preferred store or a special customer.

Without knowing, I imagine the factory folks just pick a few that look perfect, have their techs set them up, and the player tries and picks.

How does this really work? Who has been there and picked a sax at the Selmer Paris factory?

Are the testers even proficient enough to reliably identify the best horns? For that matter, if you had several great players play the same horns blindly... would they agree on which ones were best?

 

[JL]

I've read, heard and surmised that Coltrane, Brecker, Stitt et al had horns that were just better from the git go than what the rest of us could get our grimy little mitts on...

Don't know for certain, but I'd say that's total nonsense. I'd rephrase it like this:

Coltrane, Brecker, Stitt, et al were just better players from the git go than the rest of us, regardless of what horns they played. Period, end of story...

 

[tony51]

Arthur Blythe always played the same True Tone alto he bought with his mother from a second hand store in 1957.

 

[andre251]

Are the testers even proficient enough to reliably identify the best horns? For that matter, if you had several great players play the same horns blindly... would they agree on which ones were best?

I was told by a person from Selmer at a conference that top grad students from Paris Conservatory who studied under Claude Delangle did the play testing.
But yes, on the flip side, since the horns get flown overseas, upon arrival they are not expected to play perfect and the tech at the store selling it is supposed to set it up.

 

[JL]

Arthur Blythe always played the same True Tone alto he bought with his mother from a second hand store in 1957.

Those TT altos are great horns, so that's not surprising.

 

[xax]

So much folklore that gets passed around here with horns and mpcs, etc....
Really hard to know what the truth REALLY is.

Yeah i'm as big a fan of the folklore as anyone but sometimes it's a fun diversion to seek some "evidence"...