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Discussion Starter #1
I saved and waited over a year for the right deal to come along, finally found a 1936 6M on craigslist in what appeared to be excellent condition with crisp, clean engraving. I paid a fair price as it had original pads so needed an overhaul, and from multiple pictures and description (the owner was a drummer who received it as a gift 20 years ago) there was no damage and it looked almost new. Though it was play tested recently, I still carefully inspected photos of the tone holes and all scratches, and took the leap.

Now... my tech just received it and gave me the horrid news:

a) there are a few repaired dents that were hard to see in photos
b) it is an epoxy relac and there are a few red spots
c) the side key C and Bb, and F# tone holes were overbuffed as a result and lost half of the rolled rim
d) the original *%^$ idiot tech tried to cover it up by filing them nearly off though incidentally making the rim even sharper.

***!! Such heresy!! What a shame, that's what you get for relac'ing a fine playing horn, trouble... There's a tiny chance the seller knew, but more likely was simply ignorant so I'll just have to eat it. sigh.

Shouldn't cost too much more to fix but that's a pretty huge hit on resale value. I didn't intend to sell since I thought this would be my life partner (still has a chance if she plays well) but if I'm not happy, I basically got shot in the foot.

I'm no spring chicken buying used horns and I did my research and asked all the right questions, but when the seller is not knowledgable enough to notice these finer things then there's not much more you can do. It's always a gamble. My only comfort is that I probably couldn't have gotten a later non-RTH 6m for this cheap anyway.

So, just wanted to alert you all to not get complacent buying horns online (especially after the recent 82Z debacle), I'm still gonna hope for the best. I'll post an update and pics when I get the horn in my hands, she'll have white roos with flat metal resos.
 

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i feel your pain -i once had a conn 30m tenor that was a monster player that had several of its tone holes ruined in the same way. i sold the horn to a collector for a displaypeice as it was impossiable to get all the leaks out due to the uneven tone holes
 

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New tone holes can be soldered over the chimney of the damaged ones. Not fun but possible. At least they are side keys and not stacks.
 

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Sorry that happened..although, quite honestly...if it can be made to play well...it'll still be a killer horn.

I rehabbed an SML Rev. D last year which had (barely) survived the texas public school circuit for 4 decades (hey wait...did I just say those 3 words together ? Don't blink...because you won't be hearing that phrase much longer....)

A couple of the holes had been filed to make 'em level and the result wasn't dissimilar from Hornfixer's image.

Big Deal..the thing is still a BEAST, and the pads seal and function just fine. All is far, far from lost, believe me.
 

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Are the Keilwerth tone hole rings available as a repair part?

If so, are there enough sizes available to do such repairs on non J-K horns?
 

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JK toneholes sucks. I have a new king tenor that had to be taken out of service due to faulty TH solders all over the horn. THe RTH thing is a pain in the butt on all makes. I'd remove all of the roll on those damaged conn TH (regarding the original poster question). You just file the sides untill you have a "normal" tone hole. Not easy, not fast, not right by any means but's it's desecrated anyway so...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Thanks guys, I'm over the anxiety now, mostly. Yeah I know, could always be worse. It's so flat I'm surprised it didn't cut through the crease, man what a moron. My guess is he/she didn't even tell the past owner, being that incompetent they must be shady as well. Thanks for sharing the pics hornfixer, was gonna get to that eventually. MartinMods offered to fabricate some rolled collars to fit on top if they were ground down level, I will see how she plays before thinking about throwing money into that. Curious to see how Enviroguy's new RTH's will look.

There is hope! For now, we wait...

P.S. I just heard back from the seller, he was surprised and claims the horn was inspected by Emilio in Boston and this little ditty wasn't caught, so it was either handed to some apprentice who overlooked it or the guy is pulling my leg... hmm? you never know with craigslist anymore. at least he didn't try to sell me that 82Z, haha
 

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Discussion Starter #10
:evil::(:evil::cry:

play tested my @ss! so much for honor and decency among fellow musicians...
 

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I suspect the tone holes have been warped due to a knock/dent removal at some time,combined with over enthusiastic buffing. The strap ring and key pillars look to have been removed and re-soldered.
Nothing to fret over really. As Juan says RTH's are a pain in the ***. These need the remains of the 'roll' removing for an even wall thickness and providing there are no more hidden gremlins the horn should be fine.
 

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I suspect the tone holes have been warped due to a knock/dent removal at some time
You got that rite. I now have the horn torn apart. I may have to bend the keys to match the warped tone holes.
These need the remains of the 'roll' removing for an even wall thickness
I don't want to do that because it seems the tone hole wall is alot thinner then normal tone holes. They would be really sharp.
 

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Hey Paul keep us up to date on this horn--sounds really interesting for us--if not the owner!
You've got a point about the thin tone hole chimneys.I remember doing a 'Chu' alto and the palm key holes were missing the 'rolls'--- you could almost press the metal with finger pressure--not good. Seems like the technique used for rolling stretched the metal too much.
Wonder if this is the reason some 6M's have a liner in the Eb (low) tonehole?
 

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Though hardly the school solution, the metal rings from old Conn resopads might well be a decent fix if you can come up with one (pretty decent odds) that fits neatly into the tone hole. Solder it in and "new rim with a nice flat surface" (or a close to flat surface that can easily be made perfectly so). It worked great on a toasted low Eb tone hole, a ruined chromatic F# tone hole, and palm F and E's. Not brass- so it looks different but corrosion hasn't been a particular issue and while clearly a non standard fix it has the virtue of working.

It's good, as commented on earlier, that they are stand alone toneholes and not part of the main stack.

Nice model horn, but not so rare but that you could get another relaq in much better condition for well under a thousand bucks so this type of repair might be apropos. Good luck- whatever you decide, it should be a nice playing horn when brought back to life- really, the cosmetics are not why you play a 6m- you play it because it sounds great.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Appreciate the virtual support guys. Yeah, I'll play a beater horn any day if it sings.

Sent seller the vid, just got this email response:

"This guy is pulling a fast one on you; I had a good friend of mine who plays sax, play it before I took it to Rayburn; also, another player, who was interested in the horn, played in right in front of me for half an hour, with no problems navigating it.....don't know what to tell you..."

Ha! His conscience has been hacked and he's pulling a Senator Wiener move on me...
 

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Sent seller the vid, just got this email response:

"This guy is pulling a fast one on you...before I took it to Rayburn..."
I can tell you from the experience of my teachers (not just sax teachers) & more than a few sax buddies at Berklee that the fact that Rayburn looked at it means nothing. He could try to claim it was damaged during transport, but I highly doubt that is the case.

I doubt it was Emilio anyways as he almost only does overhauls. He is not the only tech there.
 

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ohh my... a 75 year old sax isn't completely beautiful? really will wonders never end? check your reality gage, get the thing restored, and play the living hell out of it. I don't think you will be disappointed.
 

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emilio only handels the selmers -all else is handed off to an apprentice
 

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emilio only handels the selmers -all else is handed off to an apprentice
Danny Kellerman is not an apprentice, but a full-time tech. Emilio does more than Selmers - begrudingly that is. I am not of aware of apprentices, but I do not go into Rayburn's but every once in a blue moon - never for repair, b/c:

I have a friend who had his Late 40's 10M "overhauled" by Emilio (the so called Sax "Dr.") and the intonation/venting was not only WAY off, a couple of pads fell out????, not to mention some rubber/felts??!!! He went back to Emilio at least 5 times, and the 6th time went to Danny (who didn't do much), but managed to burn the lacquer in two places. I took him to Les Arbuckle to get his Conn actually fixed, but more pads fell out not too long after.

Unless you are Sonny Rollins, Fred Lipsius, Frank Tiberi, etc... there is quite a chance you'll get taken. The Emilio overhaul rate is the same for everyone (including the stars), but he picks and chooses what student or "nobody" horns to actually do a good job on. I think if it's not a Selmer, he does it with his eyes closed. I say that, but he has literally destroyed the lacquer on a different friend's Selmer Ref 54 alto. He sent it to Emilio with beautiful lacquer. After he got it back, the lacquer started peeling away very fast & is now at about 80%. And, he took his horn in a bunch of times w/o it ever being placed in 100% playing order. Inexcusable!!!

These are not the only horror stories out there. I promise there are others.

Some years ago, Emilio told a friend of mine that he spends about 2 hours on an "overhaul." Pathetic.

Rayburn's WW Repair is complete and total clown shoes.
 
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