[Seasax]

hi, i have an old boosey and co rose wood pre boehm clarinet, with no mouthpiece, SN 22340 on the barrel and body,
can anyone tell me anything about these? is it useable in modern music? is it worth anything? can i get another mouthpiece for it, since modern mouthpieces dont fit

 

[Bootman]

With many Pre Boehm clarinets mpcs can be found still in use on German system clarinets. It is normally a case of ordering one of these mpcs for your Simple sytem clarinet. Reeds are typically smaller too, try white or Black masters from Vandoren.

Ed Pillinger will be able to make you one if you are in the UK. Failing this check a European clarinet site and see what you can find. It might be worthwhile checking to see if it is an Oehler or Albert system clarinet. Also check to see if it is High or Low Pitch before doing any repair job on it. I would suspect that it would be low pitch as it is of Bossey manufacture. Low pitch can be used with modern music but High pitch is useless unless you are in a High pitch ensemble. It could then be a very nice wall decoration if it is high pitch.

 

[Seasax]

i believe its an albert system fingering,
mainly holes, not many pads, just for octave, low b/b flat, g sharp, a sharp high d etc.
very much like saxophone

 

[Dave Dolson]

I don't think Simple ("Albert", or "German") System clarinets are pre-Boehm. The Boehm System goes WAY back.

Oh, maybe the Albert system pre-dates the Boehm by a few years, but we are talking mid 1800's. I have a book on clarinet systems and could look it up to be completely accurate. But SO many years have passed that they have equality (or close to it) at this date, at least ion my mind. For sure, Boehm is the more popular now, but they are almost equal in age. If I'm wrong on that, chime in.

I still have two Albert System Bb soprano clarinets in my closet (a hard-rubber Conn and a wood Buescher) and any of the mouthpieces I use for Boehm clarinets work on my Alberts.

Alberts are still popular among European classical players and New Orleans jazz-style purists. My favorite trad-jazz clarinetist plays a Buffet Albert System made in the 1880's. Another excellent trad jazzer here in SoCal plays a modern-made Albert System but in more of a swing style. He is as technically proficient as any clarinetist playing today. DAVE

 

[tictactux]

I don't think Simple ("Albert", or "German") System clarinets are pre-Boehm.

Why does everyone appear to believe that "Albert" and "German" systems are one and the same? They simply aren't. The Albert is the predecessor of the modern German (Oehler) system; Oehler has a lot more keys and rings (and other improvements).
One easy-to-spot difference is that Oehler/German has roller keys while Albert doesn't.

 

[Bootman]

Tictactux, the main reason people get confused is because we don't get to see these clarinets very often in other parts of the world. They are very rare in Australia.

 

[tictactux]

the main reason people get confused is because we don't get to see these clarinets very often in other parts of the world. They are very rare in Australia.

Hmm. Now there's a business idea...

 

[Dave Dolson]

Forgive me if you think I did not use the correct terminology. I've always read and been told that the terms ALBERT and GERMAN and SIMPLE were interchangeable - a mere matter of semantics.

And yes, I do know about Oehler Systems and never heard them called GERMAN System. A guy used to sit in with a jazz band I led 20 years ago - he played Oehler clarinet - very good, too.

I've owned several Albert System clarinets - still have two. Yes, the two I own have rollers but I recall one older Buffet Albert that did not have rollers.

Finally, I just perused a book ,THE CLARINET, F. Geoffrey Rendall (new addition revised by Philip Bate). I found no reference to GERMAN as a system. ALBERT and BOEHM (among many systems) were discussed (pages 96 - 105). The term SIMPLE was used in the text but in lower case AND not as a system descriptor, except to say that the OEHLER was not a simple system (not that anyone here alleged it was - I cite that merely to discuss the use of the word "simple"). The ALBERT predates the BOEHM by about eight years or so. DAVE

 

[Bootman]

It's ok Dave, I knew what you meant and the meaning was very clear. If we were going with semantics then we should have said 3/4 Boehm system clarinets as distinguisehed from the full Boehm system to Low Eb.

In reality, it doesn't matter a hoot. Simple system and Boehm system and their sub variations are well known descriptors of the keywork of both types of clarinet.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Dave Dolson]

Thanks, Boot. DAVE

 

[Bootman]

No worries M8!

 

[bari-gadje]

Both my teachers played simple system clarinets made by Albert of Antwerp. Their clarinets did have rollers. I recall a tone hole drilled through the middle tenon. Back in the seventies a woman offered to sell me a pair of Boehm system clarinets made by Albert. I preferred to buy new Boosey Emperor clarinets instead. A big mistake.

 

[Chris Peryagh]

As it's a Boosey&Co. clarinet it will have a French style bore (and not a German bore) so any mouthpiece and reeds of your choice that will fit a Boehm system clarinet will work with it.

The same applies with Clinton system clarinets that have the G# drilled through the lower socket on the top joint and the upper tenon on the lower joint. They've reversed the middle tenon and socket arrangement as is normal on other clarinets - French or German, old or new.

If it was East European, German or Austrian, then it would have a German style bore and need a German style mouthpiece.

 

[Chris Peryagh]

All non-Boehm system clarinets derived from the Albert system are only developments of the 5-key clarinets, having more and more keys, rings and vents added as they've evolved - the 13-key Albert system being one of the most basic, and the 27-key Oehler being at the top end of the evolutionary ladder that can trace the ancestry back to the 5-key models of the 18th century.

Boehm system clarinets are a complete departure from simple and non-Boehms.

So 5-key clarinets are our primate predecessors and Oehlers are modern humans like us, and Boehms are aliens that have taken over most of the planet.

I'm sure Charles Darwin would agree with that.

 

[tictactux]

I'm sure Charles Darwin would agree with that.

Don't hold your breath; currently they're even trying to prove Galilei wrong... :?

Oh, and I didn't mean to sound harsh or schoolmasterly (Pink Floyd, anyone?) when I was picky about the Albert - German difference. It's just that no one in the German language area ever uses the term "Albert System", unless it's an antique clarinet. The "official" terms here are "German" and "Boehm" (very rarely "French").

 

[modernicus]

Yep, the Boehm and "Albert" (built more directly on the Mueller setup) developments took place at a nearly parallel time frame. There are Boehms so old, they are in boxwood with salt spoon pad cups! Roller keys predate Albert and Boehm, and are indicative of nothing, as far as I know. The wrap-around register key seems to have been a later devlopment as well, and is not indicative of the earliest of anything, as I sometimes see purported.

 

[jicaino]

tictactux, some albert clarinets features rollers on pinky keys. The difference is in the bore (not necessarily size but shape), some compensating tone holes around the rings, etc.

As far as for playability, they are playable. I play early jazz mostly on albert - enhanced albert and oheler systems.

 

[bandmommy]

hi, i have an old boosey and co rose wood pre boehm clarinet, with no mouthpiece, SN 22340 on the barrel and body,
can anyone tell me anything about these? is it useable in modern music? is it worth anything? can i get another mouthpiece for it, since modern mouthpieces dont fit

You may be able to find a vintage mouthpiece that will fit, but it will take a LOT of trial and error. The easiest thing to do would be to take the barrel to a highly qualified tech and have the mouthpiece end reamed out a hair to accomodate a modern mouthpiece.
I have a couple of antiques that have smaller diameters than their more modern counterparts. Thankfully they still had their mouthpieces with them.

Once you get a mouthpiece to fit, you should have no trouble playing 'modern' music with this clarinet. The hardest part will be getting used to the difference in some fingerings, and maybe working around a few minor intonation issues.

Before you 'gig' with it make sure it's Low pitch.

 

[DougR]

"Simple system" clarinets are relatively common in Britain and their evolution is quite well covered in the Baines book.
Google Books is worth a peek.

 

[kymarto]

You may be able to find a vintage mouthpiece that will fit, but it will take a LOT of trial and error. The easiest thing to do would be to take the barrel to a highly qualified tech and have the mouthpiece end reamed out a hair to accomodate a modern mouthpiece.
I have a couple of antiques that have smaller diameters than their more modern counterparts. Thankfully they still had their mouthpieces with them.

Once you get a mouthpiece to fit, you should have no trouble playing 'modern' music with this clarinet. The hardest part will be getting used to the difference in some fingerings, and maybe working around a few minor intonation issues.

Before you 'gig' with it make sure it's Low pitch.

It would be good if the inner throat diameter of the mpc was the same as that of the barrel--a discontinuity there is not a great idea.

Toby