[JL]

No one is complaining when the hyperbole and puffing from an advertiser is shot down with sound argument. Nor is this just about a horn feeling different to a player because it's lacquered or not. It's about the value of this scientific information in more practical terms and whether it's of use or not..

I understand where you're coming from, Grumps. The long dissertations on sound waves, etc, are probably only interesting to those who are, well, interested in such phenomena. However, the value of this data is that it helps support certain assertions. In the case of lacquer vs silver plate vs gold plate and whether any of these platings have any significant effect on the sound, I think it is valuable to have some hard science behind the assertion that there is little or no effect on the sound. I used to think silver plated horns were brighter. It just seemed that way to me. I had no real data to support my belief. I now am pretty certain the plating has no effect, due to the hard science that has been presented on the topic. I'm still not totally certain either way, but the science and "objective" evidence points to no real effect on sound by plating or lacquer.

This all might make a difference to someone who is weighing the idea of spending more money on a horn for silver or gold plating. Their decision can be based on whether they think it is worth if for the looks of the horn, rather than any difference in sound.

 

[JL]

Science doesn't care about practical applications. It is a method to learn about nature, nothing else. .

Exactly. Science is a method of investigation that seeks out and uses the best evidence at hand. Some evidence is gained through direct observation, some through experiment. The results of investigation using the scientific method can be put to use in various ways, for better or worse. It's not the fault of science that the laws of physics can be used to craft a bomb and drop it on innocent people. It is funny though, that the same people who knock the scientific method, and refuse to accept the proven fact of certain natural processes like evolution, are often the first ones to jump out and cheer the use of such bombs. Unfortunately the existence of science and use of the scientific method by some cannot guarantee rational thought for the vast majority.

Wow, how did I get so far off topic? Back to saxophones, science does not have all the answers and no true scientist will make such a claim. You can study the physics of sound waves through the bore of a saxophone, but no one can really say WHY we love the sound of a sax, or prefer the sound of one horn model over another.

 

[JL]

It's the scientific mundane, and perversion of same we're getting at.

I definitely agree with you here. Unfortunately science is not well-understood by a lot of folks and a whole lot of nonsense can be spouted under the guise of "science." How many ads have we seen where some "scientifically proven product" that promises wonders is sold? The problem is the scientific method is not really taught very well in schools, or not taught at all, until someone gets to college and decides to go into science. I think the scientific method should be taught from the 3rd grade on, along with reading, writing, and math. Seems like we are going in the opposite direction. Keeping the masses ignorant or superstitious is perhaps more useful to those in power. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying there is any vast conspiracy or anything like that.

To some extent scientists are to blame for living in their ivory towers, speaking their own language among their peers, and not "lowering" themselves to speak in plain language to the general public. But, as I said, it would really help if we educated kids from day one at least on how the scientific method works.

 

[JL]

I'm with you here, most definitely. What really gets me is the way television is being used in this regard. It is a disgrace to see certain channels, that hold themselves out to be educational no less, featuring ghost hunters and psychics as if what they're doing is anything but chicanery. We could all use a good dose of Randi.org in this regard.

Yes, scepticism is very healthy. Oh man, you just hit one of my all time pet peeves. Don't get me going on this one! I will point out that children are basically sponges and will absorb unquestioningly any information they are fed. This is an evolutionary necessity (there's some science creeping in again). We spend the rest of our lives sifting through and identifying what makes sense and, hopefully, deleting all the bs. The superstitious nonsense on those programs you mention falls firmly into the bs catagory!

Hey Al, what were your first thoughts? Some of us are wondering.....

 

[JL]

.....Einstein challenged the ultimate truths of our more recent time by showing that Newton's laws do not hold in all circumstances, tomorrow new science may well overturn our most preciously held "beliefs of today" for that is all that they are. Who'd have thought it eh?.

Good point Rick (and Rabbit is right on the money, also, at least imo). There is one more aspect to this that is kind of subtle and maybe not well-understood. Frame of reference is very important. Newton's laws hold up extremely well on a pool table and in the frame of reference that we inhabit; that is, well below the speed of light, in a "size range" that we can see and comprehend (not the atomic level), and with objects as we perceive them. However, once you get deeper into time & space, as Einstein did, your frame of reference changes and Newton's laws don't hold up so well. Neither do our "common sense" notions, because our perceptions are somewhat limited. Ok, enough of that!

Al, your points are right on. I'm a sucker for these kinds of discussions (I enjoy them). I know what you mean though. We've gone way afield of what is useful for the sax player (frame of reference again), but I think that was Grump's point. And maybe he has made that point, lol.

 

[JL]

Hooray for the Horses?
Hooray for the Scientists, you mean.
Come on... a talking horse for cryin' out loud.
Now that was a peacetime breakthrough.

ROTFLOL, thanks Grumps, I dig that one! Hey, you're right of course about science working so well when we're all out to kill each other. Not that it's the fault of science. Necessity breeds breakthroughs....