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Discussion Starter #1
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Vintage-...s-horn-near-mint-condition-look-/140970491852

- The LH pinky table has that yucky cloned Heimer/Parker poor facsimilie look to it also it has no switchable Articulated G# lever or any provision for one.
- The bell keyguard is one-piece not a true SML two-piece keyguard.
- No rolled toneholes.
- The neck's brace is again a shoddy facsimile.
- Engraving looks 'thin'.
- Lacquer too 'fair'
- Seller doesn't take any photos of the bell stamp.
- Seller doesn't include any photos of the serial number or mention it.

The list could go on and on about this fake!

The seller craftily claims this a 'parts only' SML stencil yet doesn't mention the stencil brand (because it's most likely Parker or Heimer which are well-known poor Chinese copies).

Seller says:
" The story behind this is a little bit of a mystery to me but these were exported to different countries and then the local music company would engrave their name on them but otherwise this is the same as the French made saxes...including the bell and bow engraving , engraving on the clothes guard, the badge on the neck, the blued steel needle springs, and the grenadilla corked end plug. Later the SML company sold their tooling to China but I have owned one of those and I would say this is from French made parts. This sax actually plays now but although all the pads look new the coverage is terrible that is why I am selling this as a parts horn. You could also build you own SML sax with either replacing the pads or refloating them."

Someone, somewhere is going to be disappointed with this one :(
 

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I wondered about that one. I'm going to ask him if he will post a photo of the bell engraving.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
The Seller's response to questions of authencity via eBay Messages:

"I have owned a couple of chinese copies myself and this is of much better quality. The engraving is done by hand but there is no brand engraved on the bell. I believe a toronto company was importing these and they would put Pitchard or some brand name on these. This came via Jamaica so I am not sure of the origin. The case looks east german and the padding looks ...??? I am not trying to misrepresent this ..I am a professional woodwind doubler, an instrument collector and a napbirt member who has worked on many SML saxes...but I will try to remove this item and fix it and use it myself..(my original intention of buying it) SML horns have great low ends and are perfect for teaching (I can play the 2nd part of the duets perfectly in tune with my students) I apologize and hope you check out my other auctions....I try to sell only high quality vintage instruments.
- chopswood"


My response via eBay:
"Hi,
I admit that features of this horn look better (this is from the lo-res photos) than other Chinese copies I've seen - notably the more artful engraving and the scrolled bow to body brace - but really the rest is very obviously not true SML at all.

Those white puffy looking pads have been turning up in lots of Chinese horns and the case it currently resides in is hardly evidence of its provenance!

I think you could easily reach up to a $1000 with this horn listed as incorrectly as it has because it appeals to the amateur sax player/repairer/flipper as a true bargain - "a 1950 or 1960s SML parts horn that is near mint condition! It only needs repadding and adjustments! Wow I'm bidding on this one!!!!"

Your honesty in not taking advantage of other people's ignorance and avarice is commendable if you do remove the listing. It has been reported numerous times now to eBay so the matter may be out of your hands soon."

The listing so far is still up and now has a bid - interesting to see where we go with this one.
 

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Seller seems to be an honest person. He sent me this response:

There is no brand name engraved on the bell… either this was a sample or a stencil where the local company would put their name on it. I will try to remove this listing since another ebay member pointed out I might have misrepresented it.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Yeah, seems honest to a part.
Personally I think he got burnt on this and is trying to recoup.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Seller response #2:

"I used to be a picker of vintage saxophones and have seen many true smls and heimer and other Chinese copies...I believe this to be from French parts padded in? ?....how can you explain the grenadilla end plug and hand engraving? also the springs and screws are high quality ...probably sml shipped some parts to China along with the tooling ...but please I am trying to be honest and have a keen interest in musical instrument design and quality so I will try to end this listing
- chopswood"

Yep, you heard it here first any Chinese fake is genuine when the end-plug supplied is Grenadilla.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
My response to above:

"The end -plug found with a used Jamaican horn is just as useless a means of proof of vintage/make as the case is - anyone can stick anything into the socket! Ridiculous!
Chinese horns in the past few years have been improving the screws and springs in there saxes. Not a big deal really.
If you have a real SML Gold Medal or "Revision D" (the models that which this fake is based upon) compare the two and you will see that:

- The LH pinky table has that yucky cloned Heimer/Parker poor facsimilie look to it also it has no switchable Articulated G# lever or any provision for one.
- The bell keyguard is one-piece not a true SML two-piece keyguard.
- No rolled toneholes.
- The neck's brace is again a shoddy facsimile.
- Engraving looks 'thin'.
- Lacquer too 'fair' for a 50s-70s horn

Also every SML stencil shared the same serial number series pattern as their own line of SML branded horns - no horn went out without a consecutive number - what's the serial number of this horn?"

Now there's 3 bids on this auction fake...
 

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Discussion Starter #8
From Seller:
"Later sml horns did not have rolled tone holes...but I will admit this horn is baffling to me and the pad job looks chinese so I will admit I am mistaken and will stop the auction and will keep the horn..."

Yes, Gold Medal 'Mk.II' horns and King Marigaux horns didn't have rolled toneholes. They also lacked the adjustable bumpers on the bellkeys (they only had fixed pearls) and they still had two-piece bell keyguards not the Selmer-style one-piece like all copies always seem to have.
 
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