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Discussion Starter #1
Beware there are Keilwerth forgeries showing up on Ebay. They are from China, and look like the Shadows, with the fake name and logo, but obviously they fonts are off, and some of the key work is different. They are labeled as "95% Copy" :evil:

Such as this one:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/95-copy-Ge...epid=0&hash=item3408169748:g:yNMAAOSwlYNcqcut

The first obvious sign is the fact that the price is less than a 10th what a real Keilwerth Shadow wold go for.

Spread the word to your friends who are teachers, players and students. Don't let some unsuspecting kid get roped in to buying a fake horn.

Hopefully Buffet can pursue some sort of legal action, or at least get Ebay to take down the sales.

@Julius Keilwerth

ETA: Looks like the same seller is posting forged and "95% Copy"s of Selmer, Yamaha and Yanagisawa horns also. :cussing:
 

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It says copy and not a very accurate one too
 

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More than using the company’s name logo & model ? It should be enough.

The Header which states it 95% a copy declares it a forgery, shouldn’t be much of a problem to take down the ad and even pursuing them in a court of law (Even in China there are laws against forgeries).

https://jingdaily.com/louis-vuitton-takes-fight-against-chinas-online-fakes-to-beijing-court/

https://www.lawinsport.com/topics/articles/item/how-to-deal-with-counterfeits-in-china

https://www.worldtrademarkreview.co...es-and-strategies-anti-counterfeiting-china-0

and more....
 

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I’d say it is 95% not a Keilwerth and the rest are springs and pads

Ad has been removed (it will come back :( )
 

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The listing has been removed ( what’s visible is only the archived ad) aND at the moment he appears to have been banned ( I can’t see anything else for sale) but anyway it will be back.

Pursuing forgeries is possible even in China but one has to know the maker, pursuing a “ trader” is near impossible.
 

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The listing has been removed (what’s visible is only the archived ad) aND at the moment he appears to have been banned (I can’t see anything else for sale)...
Not quite. Click on my link above. You can see all the other “copies” he is selling. The link works as of now.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Not quite. Click on my link above. You can see all the other “copies” he is selling. The link works as of now.
Yeah, one of his items is a 95% copy of a Selmer Mark VI. Hell, SELMER couldn't even make a 95% copy of the Mark VI. lol. :faceinpalm:
 

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So you know what...After going back and looking at the original forgery that I posted...it looks like one of the Keilwerth ST 2103 model saxophones with the finish and engraving of the Shadow. I wonder if this was one of their Taiwanese or Chinese builders that ran off with the plans for the ST 2103 and finished it to look like the Shadow...?

The F# key, the high F# key, the design and position of the front high F, the design of the palm keys, the side keys, the key guard mounts, and the shape of the right hand pinky keys are all the same as the ST 2103 design. :dontknow:
 

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The auction indicates that the horn was manufactured in Ganzhou City [ 赣州], Jiangxi province. That's interesting. Jiangxi isn't terribly industrialized. KHS (manufacturer of Jupiter saxophones) made instruments in Tianjin, PRC, and some of those brands were Keilwerth, Buffet Crampon, and Vito. I wonder if KHS moved its PRC facilities to Ganzhou.
 

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Here's another link:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Band_Instruments

I didn't intend to imply that KHS would engage in petty forgery. It is a good possibility that KHS (or an individual) sold parts and perhaps entire instruments to someone who added odd parts and represented it as a copy to circumvent a lawsuit (an increasingly common phenomenon). It could actually be a Keilwerth with just a few parts exchanged. Contrary to what some people may believe, making a saxophone is no mean feat. It requires a large amount of sophisticated machinery, and if machinery for making saxophones and parts are present, that same machinery may be put to manufacturing other things. The KHS factory is huge. (Come to think of it, with the exception of the mom and pop enterprises, every factory that I've seen in China is huge).

The item appearing on the Ebay auction isn't part of a large scale conspiracy to sell saxophone forgeries. It's probably a small scale mom and pop business (or one guy) trying to scrape by and trying to do so legally. Unlike its neighboring province Jiangsu, Jiangxi is a fairly poor province. For a very long time Jiangxi's major industry was manufacturing fine porcelain in the Lake Lushan region. Before that, its (perhaps former) capitol Nanchang was very active in reeducation (which was later supplanted by foreign adoption).

Having lived there for several years, I am aware that there is no shortage of scams in China, just like the west. Many times, there's some authenticity behind representations of products that westerners consider outrageous fakes. In the case of said saxophone, the seller did say that it was 95% Keilwerth (or something like that). Caveat emptor.

One more thing: I don't think you'll find too many things stamped "made in PROC or PRC ". It would be stamped "Made in China".
 
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