[mark_m]

I'm looking for a good modern Bb baritone. What are the most favorable years for Keilwerth baris? Ergonomics/action, intonation and tone to be considered. Thanks for any thoughts!

 

[soybean]

Do you mean bari without low A… or bari in the key of Bb? Most modern baris have a low A. In general, Keilwerth keeps improving so I would get the newest one you can. The SX-90 series and it's variations.

 

[milandro]

There are many older Keilwerths keyed to low Bb ( the majority in fact) They are generally of the Toneking variety, also found as their stencils under different brands.

I have owned and sold several such baritones all made in the late '70 or '80 all versions of the Toneking type IV. Very robust and well made.

 

[B Flat]

There’s an SX 90 Low Bb Baritone also.
Don’t see many around.
That’s what I’d go for.

 

[vbluesman]

The bargains can be found in the stencil Keilwerths sold by King, Conn, Armstrong and Bundy. I have a low Bb Couf, I love it!

 

[mark_m]

There's an SX 90 Low Bb Baritone also.
Don't see many around.
That's what I'd go for.

They are around though. $9K new. Are the current Keilwerths werth it? I've never seen nor played a Keilwerth but a new or newish Bb bari would be very interesting.

 

[mark_m]

The bargains can be found in the stencil Keilwerths sold by King, Conn, Armstrong and Bundy. I have a low Bb Couf, I love it!

Of all the older Bb Keilwerths, including stencils, what would one look for as the best of the lot? And how would they compare with the currently made horns?

 

[JayeLID]

I guess one can argue that the Coufs were sorta suped-up New Kings....they are more nimble under the fingers, the action is a little slicker, it seems in some iterations of the Coufs the keys lay under the fingers a bit better than some New King models.

A low Bb contemporary baritone...JK makes one ? That's pretty cool.

I can say, their modern Low A's are damn good...I have 2 friends who have them, and back in Portland I even got a chance to service both....they are solid and sound like pure gold.

I LOVE vintage New Kings, I think they are great horns. But have to admit that their modern/contemporary cousins are nicer ergonomically and key response-wise. I think those improvements in 'feel' started with the Coufs, continued along with the Conn DJH era horns, and evolved into what the contemporary ones are now...

 

[mark_m]

I LOVE vintage New Kings, I think they are great horns. But have to admit that their modern/contemporary cousins are nicer ergonomically and key response-wise. I think those improvements in 'feel' started with the Coufs, continued along with the Conn DJH era horns, and evolved into what the contemporary ones are now...

What is a "Conn DJH era" horn?

 

[B Flat]

They are around though. $9K new. Are the current Keilwerths werth it? I've never seen nor played a Keilwerth but a new or newish Bb bari would be very interesting.

If I had that sorta cash, I'd go there.
I'm not a fan of low A's but an SX90 could possibly twist my arm.
The older Keilwerth Bb horns are ok.
But personally I think a The Martin or 12M or Zephyr would be a better bet.
However those Keilwerth Bb horns had relatively modern styled keywork.
If that's your thing.

 

[JayeLID]

What is a "Conn DJH era" horn?

When Conn was sold to MacMillan Publishing in 1970, the new owners eventually phased out the professional line (Artist series 10M and 6M) of Altos and Tenors, while moving all production to Mexico.

When Danny Henkin bought Conn from MacMillan in 1980, he began moving production back to the US and also realized he should re-instate the pro line of horns. But it would appear that re-issuing/re-manufacturing the 10M and 6M was not feasible....so he contracted Keilwerth to make Conn's pro-line Altos and Tenors. He even re-introduced the Lady engraving to these.

They were called the "DJH Modified" lines (his initials). Conn DJH's are really GOOD horns, quite arguably better than the 6M and 10M's which preceded them. I am not sure there were any DJH baritones ever made, however.

Anyways, Henkin sold the company after only 5 years at the helm, and that was the end of the JK association with Conn, and the end of the Conn DJH line.

 

[BrianMitchellBrody]

I bought a '65 Bundy HA Selmer (Keilwerth New King) in March and after its overhaul set up it plays so easily it can whisper subtones on low Bb and plays in tune until you get to the E3 up but that's typical of vintage baritones.

There is one on USA ebay last couple days.

There is also an Armstrong King Tempo (USA?) low Bb bari for a great price and it looks ready to go?

Anyway, JK stencils are fantastic

 

[mark_m]

When Conn was sold to MacMillan Publishing in 1970, the new owners eventually phased out the professional line (Artist series 10M and 6M) of Altos and Tenors, while moving all production to Mexico.

When Danny Henkin bought Conn from MacMillan in 1980, he began moving production back to the US and also realized he should re-instate the pro line of horns. But it would appear that re-issuing/re-manufacturing the 10M and 6M was not feasible....so he contracted Keilwerth to make Conn's pro-line Altos and Tenors. He even re-introduced the Lady engraving to these.

They were called the "DJH Modified" lines (his initials). Conn DJH's are really GOOD horns, quite arguably better than the 6M and 10M's which preceded them. I am not sure there were any DJH baritones ever made, however.

Anyways, Henkin sold the company after only 5 years at the helm, and that was the end of the JK association with Conn, and the end of the Conn DJH line.

Funny I'd not previously been aware. What an interesting 5-year range to watch for! Di Keilwerth use Conn's bore and layout? Or do these have a more modern action and ergonomics?

 

[mark_m]

If I had that sorta cash, I'd go there.
I'm not a fan of low A's but an SX90 could possibly twist my arm.
The older Keilwerth Bb horns are ok.
But personally I think a The Martin or 12M or Zephyr would be a better bet.
However those Keilwerth Bb horns had relatively modern styled keywork.
If that's your thing.

My bari of the past 15 years has been a The Martin. It's a great horn, but sometimes the sharp E2/F2 drive me nuts, as does the lack of a right hand alt F#, because I'm playing mostly tenor and am always reaching for that on the bari. Also I have terrible arthritis and joint inflammation in my hands and need the friendliest ergos I can find. The Martin used to be perfect for me so I don't know whether a modern horn will help or not.

To be honest, the intonation and F# bother me more when I'm practicing or recording. Somehow gigging it just all goes away. If I can, I'll keep the Martin and add a second bari, at least until I determine that one of the two horns is redundant. Unfortunately I don't think I'd be able to afford a $9K horn unless I sold the Martin and a few other horns so that may not come to pass...

 

[KeithL]

I sold my The Martin bari and got a Yani after fighting the intonation for several years but that was before aftermarket necks and mouthpieces customized to work with these horns were widely available. 1Saxman also let go of his The Martin bari and got a Kessler Solist (basically a Yani copy) due to the ergo issues you state. Hard to get a horn that sounds as good as many vintage Low Bb baris but sometimes the trade-offs are worth it or just simply necessary given personal needs.

 

[mark_m]

How about a late 80's SX90?

 

[turf3]

Funny I'd not previously been aware. What an interesting 5-year range to watch for! Di Keilwerth use Conn's bore and layout? Or do these have a more modern action and ergonomics?

They're Keilwerths. Keilwerth acoustics, Keilwerth keywork, "DJH" engraved on the bell.

They are good instruments but they bear little or no relationship to the Conn 6M 10M 12M made in Elkhart Ind.

 

[mark_m]

And do I have it right that the Keilwerth keywork is more spread than Selmer/Yamaha/Yani but less spread than vintage American?

 

[B Flat]

And do I have it right that the Keilwerth keywork is more spread than Selmer/Yamaha/Yani but less spread than vintage American?

I believe you do.
Though I have found that the spread on earlier Yamaha Baritones like the 61, are better spread than the 62,32,52 etc.
Plus they don't have that annoying tilting table of the later models.
And in my opinion a better tone.
Earlier Selmer baritones like the super series have a nice, more open spread both in keywork and tone.
One thing that I really didn't like about the King tempo I had for a short while was the octave key mechanism.
Just never worked right for me.
Probably due to a very weak spring, I believe.

 

[mark_m]

Any (what) changes from 80's SX90 bari to today's SX90 bari?