I have a friend who never uses the side key for Bb, just the Bis. I'm a neophyte on the tenor, but it seems to work for me. I've been playing F on the trumpet with first finger and F# with the second on trumpet for 60 years and it works just as well for me on tenor. I'm curious what others do.
Bb and F# fingerings
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I'm not going to go into great detail here because fingering topics, Bb in particular, are supported by a huge library of old posts on SOTW. There's been a lot of excellent past discussion that would benefit any beginning saxophonist. But in general:
1. It's fine to have a preferred fingering, but deliberately restricting yourself to a single fingering regardless of musical context is what I would call a bad habit. You force the music into your inflexible technique rather than adapting your technique to the demands of the music. There are three main Bb fingerings (and one of these has several variants). Learn how they can benefit you in different situations.
2. The alternate F# fingering, which some people think of as only a trill key, can be very helpful, especially in chromatic passages. I regularly practice a descending and ascending chromatic exercise with both the standard and alternate F# fingerings. At a certain point for me -- say, with sixteenth notes around 130-140 bpm -- the standard fingering just cannot keep up, if absolute transitional smoothness is the goal.
1. It's fine to have a preferred fingering, but deliberately restricting yourself to a single fingering regardless of musical context is what I would call a bad habit. You force the music into your inflexible technique rather than adapting your technique to the demands of the music. There are three main Bb fingerings (and one of these has several variants). Learn how they can benefit you in different situations.
2. The alternate F# fingering, which some people think of as only a trill key, can be very helpful, especially in chromatic passages. I regularly practice a descending and ascending chromatic exercise with both the standard and alternate F# fingerings. At a certain point for me -- say, with sixteenth notes around 130-140 bpm -- the standard fingering just cannot keep up, if absolute transitional smoothness is the goal.
While everyone is always free to decide what works for them, it is not a good idea to solely use the bis key for Bb.
If you have to switch between B and Bb, use of the bis key is rather unwieldy.
My teacher suggests making the side Bb the primary fingering, and only use bis in passages where it’s more effective.
My mistake was relying too much on bis key starting out, so I am trying to switch to side Bb for my standard fingering. Haven’t quite broken the habit yet. The bis key offers certain advantages (well, at least one), but I wouldn’t think using it exclusively would be the best idea.
If you have to switch between B and Bb, use of the bis key is rather unwieldy.
My teacher suggests making the side Bb the primary fingering, and only use bis in passages where it’s more effective.
My mistake was relying too much on bis key starting out, so I am trying to switch to side Bb for my standard fingering. Haven’t quite broken the habit yet. The bis key offers certain advantages (well, at least one), but I wouldn’t think using it exclusively would be the best idea.
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Learn all the fingerings well enough that you never think about it when you’re playing. Based on the lacquer-wear I don’t use alt F# much at all and side Bb only a little. Never use 1 and 1 or 1 and 2, but those seem more common for folks who learned flute first.
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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I agree with the above advice, but it's amazing what people can get used to.
I was a very good player in high school, but for some reason I used 1 and 1 almost exclusively (unless I was trilling from A to Bb, in which case I used the side key), just because that's what I was comfortable with. I didn't even know about the bis key. It wasn't until my stint in the US Armed Forces School of Music that I started using the bis and the side Bb (for more than trills), and I now use those two fingerings about 90% of the time (in roughly equal proportion).
A few months ago, I watched Greg Fishman's video where he discusses his technique of using the bis as "default on", and I was amazed at what he could achieve using just the bis key! I spent a few hours trying it, but it just didn't work for me. It actually gave me a little bit of a complex and I felt that I might be missing something, so I scoured the internet for videos of really great technical jazz players where you could see their hands (i.e., Brecker, Potter, Coltrane, Gabor Bolla, Max Ionata, etc.) until I convinced myself that none of them use this technique. I didn't check out classical players because in my experience they overwhelmingly default to the side Bb, whereas jazz players tend to have far more heterodox technique.
Tenor: Eastman 52nd St, Alto: P. Mauriat 67RDK, Soprano: Eastern Music Curvy
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As someone who used to solely use 1, 2, side key, once I learned the bis fingering I began using it exclusively. Needless to say, I was with an instructor and playing a Lennie Niehaus bit that went chromatically from B to A in a quick two sixteenth/quarter note bit. As my instructor showed me, the bis fingering was lagging my play to where it was off timing. Thus an example of when not to use it. (Unless you're just better than me at it lol)
Conn NW II Soprano, NW I Alto, 10M Tenor, NW I C Melody & Allora Bari.
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I was first taught the 1 and 1 fingering and then the side Bb. But when someone told me about the bis Bb I used it a majority of the time. Unless one of the others were easier at the moment.
Lately though I've been trying to use the side Bb more and a little bit of the 1 and 1 fingering. Just to be more flexible. The 1 and 1 fingering just isn't as clean sounding as the other two.
I think it will be harder, for me, to get use to the alternate finger for F#. Other than using it as a trill key fingering. 🙂 Old habits..
Lately though I've been trying to use the side Bb more and a little bit of the 1 and 1 fingering. Just to be more flexible. The 1 and 1 fingering just isn't as clean sounding as the other two.
I think it will be harder, for me, to get use to the alternate finger for F#. Other than using it as a trill key fingering. 🙂 Old habits..
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It depends on the situation. I tell students to always assume bis unless I have them write an alternate above the note in the music. I will usually explain why we will use the fingering in the context. Later in study with me, when a student is in high school for example, I will ask them which fingering to use in a passage and why. I find that rewarding them with small chocolate candies gets them to learn exactly when a specific fingering should be utilized. They can usually tell if it fits a specific rule like going to Ab and conversely going to B. If it is not one of those, they try all four fingerings and can explain why one or two would be superior. It all has to do with mechanical precision. So back to my first sentence, it depends on the situation.
Regarding the fork F#, I recently taught a few masterclasses at a prominent middle school. (Just imagine the very best middle school student you have heard, and they all play like that!) The audition piece was in a sharp key with about five places the student *had to* use Fork F# to facilitate a clean and brisk passage. None of the students knew of the tricks. Once taught, some of the hardest sections became significantly easier to play. Everyone but one student in the class made the honor band that year. So here just like the various Bb fingerings, context mattered. It all had to do with mechanical precision.
Anyway, I am sure this has all been said in the many posts that have been shared in previous threads. I just wanted to share some anecdotal tales.
Regarding the fork F#, I recently taught a few masterclasses at a prominent middle school. (Just imagine the very best middle school student you have heard, and they all play like that!) The audition piece was in a sharp key with about five places the student *had to* use Fork F# to facilitate a clean and brisk passage. None of the students knew of the tricks. Once taught, some of the hardest sections became significantly easier to play. Everyone but one student in the class made the honor band that year. So here just like the various Bb fingerings, context mattered. It all had to do with mechanical precision.
Anyway, I am sure this has all been said in the many posts that have been shared in previous threads. I just wanted to share some anecdotal tales.
True innovations in technique are rare (e.g., the development of the altissimo register). Usually, we are just debating preferences. So here is my rule of thumb, which I would add to what I said above in post #2: In matters of technique, do not follow the zealot who demonstrates what is possible. Follow the consensus that establishes what is optimal.
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·The Bb bis key is nice when you have a Bb whole note and have to scratch an itch with the right hand.
Learn all three common Bb fingerings and both F# fingerings and how to use them. Practice scales and patterns using not only the easiest, most obvious fingering, but also the other ones. Sooner or later you'll need to roll off and on the bis key, or you'll have to slide from the the Bb side key to the C side key, or what have you.
Personally I almost never use the Bb side key; I believe it is mainly a holdover from the initial Sax design before the 1 and 1 fingering was possible. Flute players all learn 1 and 1 and it doesn't seem to hinder the development of sparkling technique amongst flute players.
Personally I almost never use the Bb side key; I believe it is mainly a holdover from the initial Sax design before the 1 and 1 fingering was possible. Flute players all learn 1 and 1 and it doesn't seem to hinder the development of sparkling technique amongst flute players.
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There's a reason for that - the C is a different fingering, sax vs flute. On flute, the quick Bb-C is accommodated by the thumb Bb that is not present on the sax. On sax, Bb-C is facilitated by using side Bb that is not present on the flute.
For sax players, it is useful to know all three common Bb fingerings, and learn where to use them.
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This is a good discussion.
When I was first learning the sax, the side Bb was the primary fingering, with bis used if it made transitions easier. I never knew about the 1--1-- until I saw it in the WWBW charts.
Am I correct in assuming that side Bb and bis were part of Adolphe Sax's original design and the 1--1-- fingering was discovered later? Did Adolphe and others "just know" alternate fingerings were possible given the acoustics of such instruments? I suspect they did.
When I was first learning the sax, the side Bb was the primary fingering, with bis used if it made transitions easier. I never knew about the 1--1-- until I saw it in the WWBW charts.
Am I correct in assuming that side Bb and bis were part of Adolphe Sax's original design and the 1--1-- fingering was discovered later? Did Adolphe and others "just know" alternate fingerings were possible given the acoustics of such instruments? I suspect they did.
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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Sax's original designs were pretty simple. I'm pretty sure that only the side key fingering was available. The 1+1 (and 1+2) don't depend on any acoustic properties of the instrument per se, but on a set of linkages that were introduced later.
Edit: Here's a photo of an original Sax saxophone from 1861. You can see that there's no Bis key and the linkage from the bottom to top stack required for the forked fingerings is absent.
Aren't these features of the Boehm system? The clarinet has these fingerings too.
Keilwerth saxes (S/A/T), Selmer clarinets (S/B), Altus Azumi flute
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Yes. I meant introduced to the saxophone later. Sorry for any confusion.
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Thanks! I'd never seen such an early sax before.
Thanks for the very welcome advice from everyone. I never even thought about the 1 and 1, so I'll fiddle around with it. I can see where it might be the best choice of the three. The F1-F#2 is the only option on trumpet and I have no trouble with that on sax. Harry Allen told me that's all he uses.
Even though it's on a different hand, 60 years of habit are hard to break. On the trumpet, (right hand of course) third-line Bb is 1. B is 2 and C is open. Thus all three are a semitone away from the left hand on sax. I still screw up sometimes when I switch horns. I know it's just me and there are no alternatives, but it may ultimately drive me over the edge!
Even though it's on a different hand, 60 years of habit are hard to break. On the trumpet, (right hand of course) third-line Bb is 1. B is 2 and C is open. Thus all three are a semitone away from the left hand on sax. I still screw up sometimes when I switch horns. I know it's just me and there are no alternatives, but it may ultimately drive me over the edge!
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