[baritonesaxophone]

This has been my question for many years now and I know it all comes down to what I like best in the end but what are some pro's and conn's (haha) of these baris and which sound quality on these do you like better? I know Carney and Mulligan played Conns and Pepper played the Mark VI, but who plays the Bueschers or Martins? All comments are appreciated. Thanks

 

[Little Sax]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

This has been my question for many years now and I know it all comes down to what I like best in the end but what are some pro's and conn's (haha) of these baris and which sound quality on these do you like better? I know Carney and Mulligan played Conns and Pepper played the Mark VI, but who plays the Bueschers or Martins? All comments are appreciated. Thanks

If I didn't have a 12M, I'd probably be looking for a Super 20 not a Buescher. ...I wouldn't pass up a Martin "the Magna" with a Low-A though.

I've played both Buescher and Martin bari and thought they were pretty good, but not like the couple of tranny 12M's I've had a chance to play (including the one I own). These may not have been the best examples, but they're the examples I've had access to. I used to have an old King Cleveland bari and, even in its dilapidated state, had a great sound and feel to it.

MKVI's are great too (I've only played Low-Bb examples), but you tend to get a little more bang for your buck with the 12M's and the King's.
(I did get to play a Low-A SBA that was pretty cool...)

FWIW - If Lance ever finishes, I have a modified Martin on order.

 

[MartinMusicMan]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've only played my The Martin bari so I can't make any comparisons. But every time I've played the bari out with other sax players, they say how much they love the sound of it. And I do too.

 

[Steve Stockham]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've played Buescher Bari's ever since I first changed from alto in 8th grade. They have a really nice booming low register. Of course, these were Bb models (and student horns at that) so I can only give my impressions. I used Bueschers exclusively throughout my high school career and was very satisfied with them.
When I went to college, I was presented with a brand new Selmer MkVI low A bari for indoor use only (for outdoor, there was the trusty ol Buescher!) The Selmer sang! It was pure sweetness!! The action was just on another level! The sound wasn't as booming but was more even all around and I really liked that low A!
I picked up a Selmer USA model 1256 (low Bb) on ebay for a couple hundred dollars. This model is supposed to be based upon the Buescher 400 series but with some changes in keywork that make it less desireable. My tech is going over it now to make sure it will be in primo shape. I will then make the decision whether to keep it or sell it and go for something else.

 

[BarrySachs]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I believe that Pepper played a Selmer Super Action AKA SBA.

Anyway, I have found that the biggest, richest sound from a baritone has been a Martin Committee III AKA "The Martin Baritone". A close second would be a Conn 12M or "Chu". The scale on the Martin can be a bit wonky so the Conn is a better bet. Harry Carney, Gerry Mulligan, Charlie Fowlkes and Danny Bank all played Conn. Today you'll find Joe Temperley, Garry Smulyan and many up-and-coming baritone players going with the Conn like Kurt Bacher, Paul Nedzella, Addison Evans and Tony Lustig. They are all Temperley students. I play a #189k gold-plated Conn baritone myself. Other top NYC pros who are otherwise alto or tenor players also use Conn baritones like Dan Block, Mark Lopeman, Marc Phaneuf, Lee Green, Fred DeChristafaro and Terry Goss.

With that all said, there are many Selmer baritone players with great sounds, although most of them use low Bb models. Kenny Berger, Jay Brandford, Norbert Statchel (has a low Bb BA and low A SBA). Jason Marshall is a P. Mauriat player. His sound is as big as a tall building.

My feeling is that the Conn 12m or Chu is the best all-around baritone for the money. Selmers being more expensive. If you don't require a low A, you can't beat the Conn. The Martin would be a good choice if you can commit to learning to play it in tune. I have never played an SML baritone, but if they're as good as their other saxes, the SML could be a winner.

BTW, the only baritone with a low A that I liked to play was a Yamaha 61. You know, the old 1970s-era Yamaha with the light, ****-yellow lacquer! That horn really shakes like a proper saxophone.

Warning to anyone interested in vintage Conns. These horns were designed with large-chamber mouthpieces in mind. Otto Links work very well. Some older metal Bergs work too but, in general, long-shank, high, baffle pieces will be sharp, so keep that in mind.

 

[RS]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I think that Pepper later on played the Mark VI after his SBA accumulated alot of wear and tear through the years and many repairs. In any event he always played a low Bb horn.

 

[Jorns Bergenson]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

Andy, I couldn't agree more with everything You stated! I'll quote just to reiterate!

Anyway, I have found that the biggest, richest sound from a baritone has been a Martin Committee III AKA "The Martin Baritone". A close second would be a Conn 12M or "Chu". The scale on the Martin can be a bit wonky so the Conn is a better bet. <snip> My feeling is that the Conn 12m or Chu is the best all-around baritone for the money. Selmers being more expensive. If you don't require a low A, you can't beat the Conn.

I let my Conn 12m go a long time ago. Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! But, it is hard for me to justify having 4 or 5 baris when I gig with one 3 or 4 times a year. But, the 12m is the vintage bari standard in my estimation.

The Martin would be a good choice if you can commit to learning to play it in tune.

That's my bari of choice nowadays. With some tweaks, The Martin Baritone can be tamed. I won't go into them since they've been bashed around on the forum quite a bit.

BTW, the only baritone with a low A that I liked to play was a Yamaha 61. You know, the old 1970s-era Yamaha with the light, ****-yellow lacquer! That horn really shakes like a proper saxophone.

I played one of these way back in my college days. Agree with you 100% - that horn was "locked in". Good intonation and solid tone up and down. I hogged out the chamber of a Dukoff D10 and took down the baffle a bit and enjoyed that setup for a long time. It did not seem quite as robust as other baris, though.

My "Old Faithful" has been a mid 1930's Buescher. Sweet tone and great intonation. Not as much character as a Conn or Martin, but a great horn that has served me well for some 30 years.

Hmm, after thinking through what I've written, I couldn't pick any of the vintage horns over the others (Conn, Martin and Buescher). They are all great horns with different qualities. I don't pay attention to "what horn did the greats play" too much. It only matters what inspires you.

 

[Stephen Howard]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've owned a Buescher BB and a Martin Handcraft - and I've played countless Conns and Selmers.
The Buescher always had a nice warmth to it...mellifluous, I'd say.
I was always told the Conn Crossbar was the bari to get, and when I first played one I could see why...it had a lot more poke than my Buescher.
But then I got hold of a Martin - and oh my, what a sound!

Liked the Selmer, but I didn't feel it had as much oomph as the Martin.

These days I'd have a YBS62 in a heartbeat - but my cheapo Chinese bari does pretty well, and my old Rampone has lyrical written all over it.

Regards,

 

[Enviroguy]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

If you want something to stand out instead of blending, the 12M is a great choice. Put a Berg on it and you can get that projected bari sound like in the old British rock songs.

 

[BarrySachs]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

If you want something to stand out instead of blending, the 12M is a great choice. Put a Berg on it and you can get that projected bari sound like in the old British rock songs.

Ronnie Ross, right?

You can blend with a metal Berg too. Joe Temperley used to play a Berg 110/2 on a 12M. Charlie Fowlkes played a metal Berg on his 12M with the Basie band for 25 years.

 

[Stephangus]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've played vi's (low-a; otherwise), bueschers (confident and even), and have owned a 12m and king zephyr. the 12m was stolen 20 years ago. she was one of the loves of my life.

i currently play the zeph. this is a horn that listeners comment a lot on. the bell diameter is quite possibly the largest ever for a bari, but besides that, i get frequent, unsolicited remarks on the tone, which is described as 'real rich', 'full', and just 'real nice' (the other bari player in my main band plays a newer-ish, low-a yamaha. folks don't say much about it's sound). tim glesmann at sax alley did some work on it and said it felt and sounded better than any 12m he'd played. the zeph likes the berg edge and complexity; and the more pure, resinous sounding link stm. it also does well with an even cleaner c-star. all of these pieces, however, have to be pulled way out to play in tune.

from my side of things - always second to what listeners have to say - the ergs are a challenge, the vibes are great, it has a sweet, singing high end, and very gratifying bottom. as this is about comparison, i'd have to say the '45 king zephyr is certainly in the same league with the 12m. i'd love to try a super twenty some day.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

Pepper Adams played a The Martin Committee, and switched to the Selmer later on.

 

[rhysonsax]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

Pepper Adams played a The Martin Committee, and switched to the Selmer later on.

What is your source for that information and what period does it apply to ?

In this thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?156235-Setup-Pepper-Adams I quote an interview that Pepper Adams did with Saxophone Journal. In that interview he says "I had been playing the same Selmer balanced action baritone saxophone that I bought new in 1947" and then goes on to describe buying a new low Bb Selmer bari to replace his SBA just shortly before the interview (magazine published in May 1982).

Rhys

 

[jthole]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

The Conn that I played was too "boomy" for my taste
I've played an exceptionally good Mark VI but also a mediocre one
I love the sound of my Martin, and they can be tamed indeed with a few adjustments and some practice

My new love is a 1976 Grassi with a low A ... the keywork and the sound are not as good as the Martin, but being able to play that low A is delicious

 

[SMF]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've own and played a "The Martin Bari", a King super 20, and a selmer Series II. The martin had a great ballsy sound using an older otto link. ergonimics were not great for my hands and after a couple years I sold it. (regrets, should have had it worked on) But, came across a great deal on an series II that I still play as well as a super 20. The super 20 is just pretty sounding, not as big as the martin, and not as big as I was expecting after playing a Super 20 tenor, but just nice. The series II and the king are very different horns, but sinc we are talking vintage horns. Never had the chande to play a conn yet....

 

[ZenBen]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

I've only played my The Martin bari so I can't make any comparisons. But every time I've played the bari out with other sax players, they say how much they love the sound of it. And I do too.

That's my experience too.

 

[SAXISMYAXE]

Re: Battle of the the vintage baris: Conn 12M v. The Martin Baritone v. Selmer Mark VI v. Buescher B

What is your source for that information and what period does it apply to ?

In this thread: http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?156235-Setup-Pepper-Adams I quote an interview that Pepper Adams did with Saxophone Journal. In that interview he says "I had been playing the same Selmer balanced action baritone saxophone that I bought new in 1947" and then goes on to describe buying a new low Bb Selmer bari to replace his SBA just shortly before the interview (magazine published in May 1982).

Rhys

I'm really, truly embarrassed to admit the error of my ways. In my defense, I've reached the age where my fuzzy memories start to cloud the thought process. Hand in face I must admit that I confused Pepper Adams with Art Pepper when I wrote this.:faceinpalm:

Guess we shall all have to get used to it, cause it is only down hill from here.