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Phil - Thats the plan today. I had planned to yesterday, but i had a gig at Cafe Culture and I played the VGL Tenor with the Hollywood. WHen I got home from the gig I had that mouthpice out making sure the ligature fits and it does. its next to me now - I am having breakfast (or brunch) and then I will let it loose.
 
Phil - Thats the plan today. I had planned to yesterday, but i had a gig at Cafe Culture and I played the VGL Tenor with the Hollywood. WHen I got home from the gig I had that mouthpice out making sure the ligature fits and it does. its next to me now - I am having breakfast (or brunch) and then I will let it loose.
Oh come ON! You haven't played it YET!!!???? Man, I guess other people aren't like me. I would have ripped into that sucka the minute I got it but I guess you were distracted by the horn.

Phil
 
You can say that agin Phil - I cant stop looking at it - A-M-A-Z-I-N-G.
It's solid copper and only one of two, maybe three in the world. I may make some more but copper is very difficult to machine and since I know that the material doesn't make any diffference I don't see any reason to do it other than marketing but I suppose that that's a good reason. Some people think that the material makes a difference and while I know it doesn't maybe the fact that a person thinking that it matters causes it to make a difference. I've done so many blindfold tests and when a player is blindfolded they never know what they're playing and if I did go ahead and make them out of other materials I'd feel dishonest is doing it. I made a number of mouthpieces out of sterling silver and I liked the idea of it. It was a beautiful metal and was very easy to work with since it was so soft and I'd like to do it again but now that I'm maching them from solid bar there would be a lot of chips left over so that would mean I'd have to sell them back to the people that sold the bars to me and it would be expensive and a lot of trouble. Phil Barone
 
Phil-I know what you think about the finish on your horns but what about the neck finish and materials? Copper vs Silver plated etc? What are the basic sonic differences? Is a copper neck generally brighter and more free blowing ?

R
 
Phil-I know what you think about the finish on your horns but what about the neck finish and materials? Copper vs Silver plated etc? What are the basic sonic differences? Is a copper neck generally brighter and more free blowing ?

R
I think the general, though HEAVILY debated opinion here is that material doesn't change the sound at all. I agree that it may not change the sound to the listener, but as the player, I can definitely feel the differences and hear different things as I play.

I have four necks for my Cannonball Raven tenor: 2 regular (iced black nick + iced silver plate), and 2 fatnecks (iced black nick and unlacquered). I sat in a room with the bass player in my group and my wife blindfolded both of us. She set-up my sax with a random neck and the same mouthpiece/ reed 8 times (each neck twice) and handed it to me. I played the exact same thing 8 times as closely as possible each time. They were recorded and labeled tracks 1-8. Right after each trial, I said which neck I thought I was playing and my wife recorded my answer, as well as the correct answer...I was 8 for 8 on this test.

Then we listened to the tracks in random non-repeated order:

Ben (bass player) was just listening for differences in sound, and decided that four tracks sounded "more present" to him, and more like my tone with the group. The four he picked were the two fatnecks.

I also selected the four fatneck takes correctly, and preferred the sound to the other four. At first listen (one time through), that was pretty good.

We then took a closer listen to each four track grouping individually. I have to say that neither of us could separate them any further than this.

So, two different styles of necks in two different finishes, and we couldn't tell the difference. To me, this says three things:

1. There is a definitely a difference (good in our opinion) between the Cannonball fatneck and regular neck.

2. Hooray for the consistency between necks of the same style on the part of Cannonball.

3. The difference is truly felt by the player. I play the unlacquered fatneck because I love the feel of it. In my opinion it is more responsive and I like what I hear better when playing it.
 
I think the general, though HEAVILY debated opinion here is that material doesn't change the sound at all. I agree that it may not change the sound to the listener, but as the player, I can definitely feel the differences and hear different things as I play.

I have four necks for my Cannonball Raven tenor: 2 regular (iced black nick + iced silver plate), and 2 fatnecks (iced black nick and unlacquered). I sat in a room with the bass player in my group and my wife blindfolded both of us. She set-up my sax with a random neck and the same mouthpiece/ reed 8 times (each neck twice) and handed it to me. I played the exact same thing 8 times as closely as possible each time. They were recorded and labeled tracks 1-8. Right after each trial, I said which neck I thought I was playing and my wife recorded my answer, as well as the correct answer...I was 8 for 8 on this test.

Then we listened to the tracks in random non-repeated order:

Ben (bass player) was just listening for differences in sound, and decided that four tracks sounded "more present" to him, and more like my tone with the group. The four he picked were the two fatnecks.

I also selected the four fatneck takes correctly, and preferred the sound to the other four. At first listen (one time through), that was pretty good.

We then took a closer listen to each four track grouping individually. I have to say that neither of us could separate them any further than this.

So, two different styles of necks in two different finishes, and we couldn't tell the difference. To me, this says three things:

1. There is a definitely a difference (good in our opinion) between the Cannonball fatneck and regular neck.

2. Hooray for the consistency between necks of the same style on the part of Cannonball.

3. The difference is truly felt by the player. I play the unlacquered fatneck because I love the feel of it. In my opinion it is more responsive and I like what I hear better when playing it.
Interesting stuff man. So, the DESIGN of the neck contributed far more to the sound than the differences in finish.
 
The Barone Classic and Vintage each have different necks. The Classic neck is not as high, with a little different curve and it is beveled on the mouthpiece end.
 
As hard as it is to believe, it doesn't make one bit of difference. Phil

Phil-I know what you think about the finish on your horns but what about the neck finish and materials? Copper vs Silver plated etc? What are the basic sonic differences? Is a copper neck generally brighter and more free blowing ?

R
 
Interesting stuff man. So, the DESIGN of the neck contributed far more to the sound than the differences in finish.
You're missing the point though. There's small but significant difference between the inside shaped of the necks. The way horns and in this case necks are made they're substantially different. Now if they were CNC machined and the accuracy was really tight than it would be a good experiment but they're not. Phil
 
So Mr. Barone, how does your included custom necks add to the sound quality of our horns. I remember when my Dad and I were drooling over your website, it said that your horns came with your custom mpc and necks. I understand and can now appreciate the mpc's, but I'm a little confused on the neck stuff. The necks we get when we buy your horns, are they the same ones you have on sale individually? Can you spend a few words on what makes them better than the normal necks coming with other horns with similar Taiwanese DNA, like P. Mariats and Antiquas? This is interesting reading here.
 
I don't know how to compare them to other necks because I haven't seen my competitors but my necks have larger bores than what you'd get if I were to supply it with the neck that I buy the horn with. A larger bore gives you a darker sound, a more even register and fatter high notes. The entire register is bigger but it effects the upper register more. The only drawback to them is if you don't play the right mouthpiece for the right music the horn could end up sounding too dark. Sometimes I see one of my horns on eBay and I'm certain it's because the customer didn't match the right mouthpiece with the horn because the horns themselves deliver but the player really has to know how to play and what I mean by that it that they have to know how to fill the horn up with air and it's crucial that they put the right mouthpiece on there. The mouthpiece may be more important than anything in fact.

Eric, if you don't mind me saying, I see you spend a lot of time on here and I think you'd do yourself a favor by spending a little less time thinking about gear and more time in the shed. You're thirteen, right? I'm only saying this because I made the mistake of spending too much time with gear and, well, I actually practiced a lot but I wish I had spent less time with gear and just practiced because I found that for the most part by practicing I could transcend my equipiment. Phil Barone

So Mr. Barone, how does your included custom necks add to the sound quality of our horns. I remember when my Dad and I were drooling over your website, it said that your horns came with your custom mpc and necks. I understand and can now appreciate the mpc's, but I'm a little confused on the neck stuff. The necks we get when we buy your horns, are they the same ones you have on sale individually? Can you spend a few words on what makes them better than the normal necks coming with other horns with similar Taiwanese DNA, like P. Mariats and Antiquas? This is interesting reading here.
 
It's solid copper and only one of two, maybe three in the world. I may make some more but copper is very difficult to machine and since I know that the material doesn't make any diffference I don't see any reason to do it other than marketing but I suppose that that's a good reason. Some people think that the material makes a difference and while I know it doesn't maybe the fact that a person thinking that it matters causes it to make a difference. I've done so many blindfold tests and when a player is blindfolded they never know what they're playing and if I did go ahead and make them out of other materials I'd feel dishonest is doing it. I made a number of mouthpieces out of sterling silver and I liked the idea of it. It was a beautiful metal and was very easy to work with since it was so soft and I'd like to do it again but now that I'm maching them from solid bar there would be a lot of chips left over so that would mean I'd have to sell them back to the people that sold the bars to me and it would be expensive and a lot of trouble. Phil Barone
So I am only one of two people to have one - Thanks so much Phil. I'll give it a good play side by side with the Hollywood - I noticed its an 8 - Does this mean is it an 8 or 8* ?
 
Eric, if you don't mind me saying, I see you spend a lot of time on here and I think you'd do yourself a favor by spending a little less time thinking about gear and more time in the shed. You're thirteen, right? I'm only saying this because I made the mistake of spending too much time with gear and, well, I actually practiced a lot but I wish I had spent less time with gear and just practiced because I found that for the most part by practicing I could transcend my equipiment. Phil Barone
Yes sir.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
Man I didn't think my post about Phil's finishes would turn into such an informational thread! But I guess that's how things go here on sotw...

And Phil sure is right about not worryin about the gear and worrying more about practicing. And I promise I'll be ordering that tenor classic soon! Then I can get in the shed like I should, and like we all should.
 
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