[Taragot]

Hello everybody,
I'm thinking about buying a baritone and thinking about the common questions....
I would be glad if some of you would share there thoughts about this.

Here's my situation: I never wanted a bari, because I have already more instruments than time and did not like the idea of schlepping another case to a gig. Until I borrowed a bari and discovered that I love playing it (with Pete Thomas' PPT mouthpiece, which is absolutely great)

Here are my options:
1. The horn I borrowed is a King Zephyr low Bb horn from a friend. After adressing some leaks and key openings for my self this horn plays like a dream for my Mulligan Moods (and would for shure do more so after a tech visite). We did not talk exactly about the price, but it should be in the 1500€ - 2000€ region (it's about finding the right price, not a bargain). The zephyr is without case so I should at least plan another 500€ for a bags case and a trip to the tech. The pads are older and propably original.
Intonation is ok (beside the ultra high palm keys which is a DIY fix), Ergos, too (beside the low c#, which is really a stretch)

2. A new modern taiwanese horn, for example a jupiter JBS 1000 https://www.thomann.de/de/jupiter_jbs1000_baritone_saxophone.htm
or a Thomann BariPRO https://www.thomann.de/de/thomann_baripro_vg_baritone_sax.htm

which are both below 3000€ at the moment at Thomann.

I'm not biased in the modern/vintage discussion. I have more modern than (half) vintage horns and would like the idea of owning a beauty like the zephyr. But more important fo me is, that the horn is able to get the various tasks done. At the moment I'm enjoying the zephyr a lot playing jazz. But I'd like to be able to play in all kinds of situations in the future (from bach cello suites to bigband). I don't find the ergos of the zephyr bad (it feels very nice and natural for me), but I'm not shure if I could handle all pinkie work that might come my way. And of course low a - I'm playing soprano in my quartet, but there's hardly an arrangement without low a (same for bigband I assume...).
I could borrow a chinese sax for cases where I had to have a low a - but it would not make much sense to buy one and play on another.

Since Thomann has a great return policy (at least inside Germany), I'll propably order the Jupiter or the Thomann (or even make a trip to Thomann) to compare them with the zephyr.
But it would be great to get some ideas before! How would you decide?
Thank you!

 

[Pete Thomas]

You are going to want both!

 

[Taragot]

You are going to want both!

No!!!! Apage Satana!

 

[Zephyrwolf]

You need the low A. You could buy a Taishan bari and the Zephyr.

 

[1saxman]

You are going to want both!

This. No modern horn is going to sound like the King, but the low A is cool to have. I had a Martin - sounded great and decent ergos. I sold it and got a low A - Kessler 'Solist', which is a good horn. I don't regret the change - for one thing the intonation is much better, but the new one does not have the Martin's warmth. In my case the perfect solution would have been a Martin Magna low A, but they are scarce as hen's teeth and priced accordingly. I did play one for 5 minutes on a gig once and it was awesome.
One used horn that pops up from time to time is a Vito low A baritone made by Yanagisawa. These can usually be had in your budget area and possibly could be the horn that makes an acceptable compromise between the two considerations.
The Kessler Solist is $2500 but I don't know about international shipping.

 

[Taragot]

This thread is taking a direction I wanted to avoid☺
Thanks for all the input so far!

 

[guidocreo]

I'm agree with Pete.

I have two baris:

Keilwerth sx 90, former low A but transformed in Low Bb, made in 90's, bought in 2015

LA Ripamonti Master, Low A, bought new three years ago.

Usually I play the Keilwerth, I love its sound and the lower weight (round 1 Kg less than the Ripamonti) but in a SATB quartet I need the Ripamonti (the arrangers love low A).

The Ripamonti (round 3 thousand euro) has a very better mechanics too.

Also consider that the baritone mechanics is very prone to drawbacks and a spare sax is almost necessary if you start playing in public events.

I was once playing the Keilwerth with the quartet in a very elegant event and the whole castle of the left palm keys fell on the ground (luckily we were at the end of the last song). Then I bought the Ripamonti.

Definitely, you are going to buy two saxophones. :mrgreen:

Ciao and keep you safe.

 

[BH9]

Plenty of great musicians get by on a low Bb. Eden Bareket for one plays a Zephyr in every situation. That said, I have both, and barely touch the old Conn anymore.

 

[1saxman]

I was curious and took a look - there's a 1972 Vito/Yanagisawa on ebay now.

 

[JayeLID]

The King is WAY overpriced...I mean....no case, old pads, and I am gonna guess it isn't clean as a whistle regarding having had a professional cleaning in the past couple of years, right ?

...2000euro ????!!!!

That is WAY overpriced, even for an American horn in Europe. I know the owner is a friend but goodness, me....you'd be a heckuva stellar friend to offer in the 2000 range for that horn in the condition it is in as you describe it.

Zephs are the 'distant third' Baritone of the American makers as far as popularity and market value....way behind 12M and Comm III's. (Personally, having refurbed many of all of those, I disagree - the Zeph, to me, assuming it is not an Eastlake one with the revised keywork - is as good a horn as both the Martin or the Conn - but that isn't the way market popularity sees it).

Again, I understand that this price thing is not a primary issue for you, but still....there's a point where a horn investment just becomes a bad buy, a poor monetary decision.

The pricepoint you are discussing for the Zeph...is at that point. Just FWIW.

Next, as always, your comment regarding the Jupe goes completely ignored here on thsi Forum, as Jupes always do.

The Jupe baritones are very good baritones. So that one looks pretty good to me.

Saxman is correct, old Baris are just like old S,A,T's...warmer-toned, rounder, darker.

So...yeah, the only 3 Low A's out there which I can think of which have that sonic signature would be a Conn 11M, a B&S/Weltklang, or a JK-made one.

Yanis, Jupes, Yamas...they sound pretty good, but they don't have "that" tonal thing like an older American horn.

I know nothing of Thomann's house brand....but going up against a long-established company like Jupe, with no other info available I'd say the latter is a wiser choice.

So, hope my 2 cents helps some and didn't digress your thread...

 

[lydian]

IMO, the low A versus Bb thing is a bunch of mystical BS. You can easily sound like Mulligan on a low A horn with practice and the right mouthpiece. I just went from an old Conn to a newish Kessler. The average listener would not be able to tell any difference.

Don't worry about the pinky table. Many low A horns, like the Kessler mentioned above, don't put A on the pinky table at all, only on the thumb. Plus, modern low A horns have the G# linkage that makes jumps from low notes to G# much easier than it is on vintage horns.

Virtually nobody I know has or could afford a spare bari. Do you have 2 sopranos, 2 altos or 2 tenors? Have you ever needed more than one?

Get the low A and enjoy.

 

[raindog]

Two roads you can take:

- Play a low Bb
- Honk low A's while the low Bb haunts you in your dreams

The third road, we apparently are not allowed to talk about the third road here

I don't know about the price, but, I do wonder where in EU folks supposedly find all those nice sub 2000eur baritones on the regular!

 

[Taragot]

Thank you very much for all your inputs - much apreciated!
I'm fighting the notion of "needing" two baris with everything I have!
My plan for now is this: I'll visit the Thomann-Shop in a few days and play the Jupiter and the Thomann side by side (hope that's possible these days). Thankfully I have a Mpc/reed combi that works well together so that only the horn is variable.
After that trip I'm hope I'm wiser. If not, I'll order the winner of the Jupiter/Thomann-contest to play it against the zephyr.

@1stsaxman: A Vito/Yana low A would be great, but I don't want to order a bari from overseas
@JayLID: What would be a fair pricerange for the zephyr in your opinion?

 

[raindog]

If it is of any help, I paid somewhat recently 1700€ for late 70's - early 80's specimen that doesn't say Zephyr (less valued and not as well recognized). That was from a shop in Germany, excellent playing condition, original case and mpc. Not coincidentally, exactly the same price I sold my low A Jupiter for, haha.

Luckily for me, it stayed in the shop for the almost full year I spent thinking about it occasionally - maybe it didn't sell because of too high price, or maybe because it didn't say "zephyr" anywhere, or maybe it was just well hidden. In any case it it was money well spent.

 

[KeithL]

Thank you very much for all your inputs - much apreciated!
I'm fighting the notion of "needing" two baris with everything I have!
My plan for now is this: I'll visit the Thomann-Shop in a few days and play the Jupiter and the Thomann side by side (hope that's possible these days). Thankfully I have a Mpc/reed combi that works well together so that only the horn is variable.
After that trip I'm hope I'm wiser. If not, I'll order the winner of the Jupiter/Thomann-contest to play it against the zephyr.

@1stsaxman: A Vito/Yana low A would be great, but I don't want to order a bari from overseas
@JayLID: What would be a fair pricerange for the zephyr in your opinion?

Depends what you plan to do with bari. This discussion has been had many times over the last 20 years here at SOTW so there are loads of old threads to look back on. While you can certainly get by with a Low Bb horn in many cases, most people find things much easier with a Low A horn if you plan to play in big bands, concert bands, funk bands, wind ensembles or quartets. Low A's show up in a lot of bari parts written over the last 60 years and trying to play the parts up and octave is not always ideal. If your playing situations are going to included a lot of music that's likely to have Low A's you should get a Low A horn.

I have both and play both at least once or twice a week. After years of playing both, recording myself, and have others listen I'm convinced while there's a fair amount of difference in the feedback the player receives there is very little sound difference out in front of the horns.

 

[Taragot]

Depends what you plan to do with bari. This discussion has been had many times over the last 20 years here at SOTW so there are loads of old threads to look back on. While you can certainly get by with a Low Bb horn in many cases, most people find things much easier with a Low A horn if you plan to play in big bands, concert bands, funk bands, wind ensembles or quartets. Low A's show up in a lot of bari parts written over the last 60 years and trying to play the parts up and octave is not always ideal. If your playing situations are going to included a lot of music that's likely to have Low A's you should get a Low A horn.

I have both and play both at least once or twice a week. After years of playing both, recording myself, and have others listen I'm convinced while there's a fair amount of difference in the feedback the player receives there is very little sound difference out in front of the horns.

These are in short my reasons to look for a low a bari. The reason for the zephyr would be that I love how it plays (jazz).

Perhaps I can try an Amati ABS 31 to low A for much less. Let's see how this plays.

 

[turf3]

I have been playing the same Conn (low Bb) since 1984 and I consider myself a baritone specialist. I have played many many gigs on this horn in big bands and I've always been able to work around the lack of the low A.

Nevertheless, if I were a young musician looking for my first baritone, I'd go for a low A instrument first.

 

[JayeLID]

@JayLID: What would be a fair pricerange for the zephyr in your opinion?

Old pads, decent aesthetics but not pristine, playing, no case ? $1200usd tops here. So adding another 15% given American horns are more expensive in Europe....that still puts a fair European price at around $1400-1450usd.

So....if a friend, you wanna throw in a bit more as a 'thank you' ? $1650usd absolute tops....equals around $1400-1450euros.

Perhaps I can try an Amati ABS 31 to low A for much less. Let's see how this plays.

I forgot Amati...one of the other makers which would have retained a darker, old-school tone in a Low A. Worth a look.

 

[JayeLID]

IMO, the low A versus Bb thing is a bunch of mystical BS. You can easily sound like Mulligan on a low A horn with practice and the right mouthpiece. I just went from an old Conn to a newish Kessler. The average listener would not be able to tell any difference.

Respectfully - Yes/No.

The 'average listener' would not be able to tell the difference between a Yama 23 and a King S20, either. Nor would they be able to discern whether a particular horn in a horn section sounds better than a different model in the same section.

But...is THAT a measure a good, experienced sax player would wanna use when searching for a horn ? Probably not (?)

So.....does a Kessler sound like a 12M or Zeph ? No.
Would most experienced players agree a Kessler doesn't sound like a 12M or Zeph ? Yes.
Would most players agree a Yama or Yani doesn't sound like a 12M or Zeph ? Yes.

So a better measure is probably gonna be how it sounds to the experienced player, both from behind and from in front.

So I am not so sure what the 'mystical BS' is you were referring to.

A 12M, 11M, Zeph, Couf, Comm III, B&S, etc...certainly sounds different, tonally, than a Kessler, Jupe, Yama, Antigua, etc....that a non-musician (or even your piano player, etc) 'cannot tell' is probably true, but....

 

[saxoclese]

Depends what you plan to do with bari. This discussion has been had many times over the last 20 years here at SOTW so there are loads of old threads to look back on. While you can certainly get by with a Low Bb horn in many cases, most people find things much easier with a Low A horn if you plan to play in big bands, concert bands, funk bands, wind ensembles or quartets. Low A's show up in a lot of bari parts written over the last 60 years and trying to play the parts up and octave is not always ideal. If your playing situations are going to included a lot of music that's likely to have Low A's you should get a Low A horn.

+1