[B Flat]

Hi all.
I mostly play Baritone and Tenor.
I occasionally get the alto out for a tune or two though.
Not a big deal but I’ve noticed that I really have to push the piece in to tune up.
I’m literally on the end of the cork (but not the outer end which is the normal issue).
I must just just be a slack jawed yokel.
Perhaps that’s why I’ve never warmed to alto as much.
However I do now have a fine little alto at my disposal and would like to do it justice.
I’m playing a relatively soft set up (Yanagisawa Hard Rubber 5 with Rico royal 2.5) compared to Tenor and Baritone (Tenor Link STM 9*-10 EB with Vandoren Java green 2.5 and Baritone Link STM 9 with Rico Royal 3)and was wondering if a more open set up may help me to tighten up a little and bring it into line.
What do you think?

 

[Benny]

Impossible to accurately diagnose without seeing and hearing, although I have my suspicions.
Go and see a good teacher- one with an excellent grasp of tone production essentials, there are plenty around where you are. Happy to recommend if you need

 

[B Flat]

Impossible to accurately diagnose without seeing and hearing, although I have my suspicions.
Go and see a good teacher- one with an excellent grasp of tone production essentials, there are plenty around where you are. Happy to recommend if you need

Hi Benny
You're right of course I should see a good teacher but I do find it difficult to set aside the time.
However your recommendations would be welcome.
I'm aware of Lachlan McLean as he was quite local to me at one point in time, not sure if that's still the case though.

Nick.

 

[B Flat]

Here's something I played earlier both on alto and another on Baritone.
Not sure if it helps with a diagnosis or not though.
https://app.box.com/s/ppcp0x5evs4cm8ykxx5rl4jytqh9c9jl

https://app.box.com/s/sn12rw5wov4p3pt2rhbzr367l4uhs3wg

 

[mrpeebee]

I'm playing a relatively soft set up (Yanagisawa Hard Rubber 5 with Rico royal 2.5) compared to Tenor and Baritone (Tenor Link STM 9*-10 EB with Vandoren Java green 2.5 and Baritone Link STM 9 with Rico Royal 3)and was wondering if a more open set up may help me to tighten up a little and bring it into line.
What do you think?

As you know I also play a big tip 10* Florida no USA Link (it measures 0.138") on tenor. I also have an alto that I hardly play, but last time I did (about 2 years ago) I had the same issue as you (couldn't get the alto in tune, being flat). I use a big tip on alto too, a modern 9* Link STM with Rico Royal 2.5, so I'm not sure if a bigger alto tip mouthpiece would help you.

It could be that we both play with a to loose embouchure for alto. Another option for you could be to try a mouthpiece with a smaller chamber than the Yani HR. Did you ever try a medium chamber Meyer in a 6 or 7?

 

[B Flat]

As you know I also play a big tip 10* Florida no USA Link (it measures 0.138") on tenor. I also have an alto that I hardly play, but last time I did (about 2 years ago) I had the same issue as you (couldn't get the alto in tune, being flat). I use a big tip on alto too, a modern 9* Link STM with Rico Royal 2.5, so I'm not sure if a bigger alto tip mouthpiece would help you.

It could be that we both play with a to loose embouchure for alto. Another option for you could be to try a mouthpiece with a smaller chamber than the Yani HR. Did you ever try a medium chamber Meyer in a 6 or 7?

Thanks Peter
Yes I feel like the loose embouchere could definitely be a big factor.
Unlike Tenor and Baritone, I've never tried many mouthpieces on alto so perhaps a smaller chamber piece would be helpful.

 

[turf3]

Be glad you play flat, most of us are trying to play more open and lower. I wouldn't change anything as long as you can push in enough to be in tune.

 

[1saxman]

What he said. Go with it. Many of us could say the same thing. Me, for example. I also play fairly open tenor and baritone pieces with softer reeds. Actually, all my horns will need the mouthpiece very far in. People need to stop comparing themselves to the mythical 'norm'. What works for you is 'the right way'.

 

[Gange]

You indeed need a firmer embochoure when playing alto. However, if you're content with your sound just push the mouthpiece a bit further in.

 

[KeithL]

Check the pitch you get just on the alto mouthpiece by itself. Something close to a concert A would indicate about the right embouchure pressure and voicing for alto. If you play mostly tenor and bari blowing something lower would be pretty normal and as turf says is not necessarily a bad thing. Pete's take on it here is well articulated and worth a quick read; https://tamingthesaxophone.com/saxophone-mouthpiece-exercises

 

[saxoclese]

Another embouchure test found in Larry Teal's "The Art of Saxophone Playing" is to play the note A with a full tone and with the free hand momentarily "bump" the neck octave key open and let it close. If it goes to high A and stays for a few seconds the embouchure is too tight. If it goes to a high A and has a flat and flabby sound, the embouchure is too loose. If it goes to high A and quickly drops back down when the octave key closes, the embouchure pressure is correct.

The other method I use with my students is to have them play the mouthpiece + neck. If the pitch is below Ab concert, the embouchure should be tightened. Usually the pitch is higher than that which means the student is "biting" and should open the teeth more.

 

[B Flat]

Thanks guys for the thoughts and ideas.
I’ll try all of those tests later today and see what the result are.

 

[hakukani]

I tune all my horns by playing first overtone of long b, and comparing it to the regular fingering. That sets up a good starting point.

BTW, I play a tenor .120 (9) and alto with a slant sig 6*, that measures .085. I also have a meyer 9m and a rast .096 selmer. You might see if that size works better for you.

You really need a faster airspeed for alto to bring the pitch up.

 

[B Flat]

Well I tried a couple of the tests mentioned previously and my results were.
Mouthpiece alone: blowing on the flatter side of A.
Mouthpiece and neck was closer to G but pretty unstable.
A with the octave key disturbance was not too bad but I may have subconsciously been compensating for it.
I repeated the exercises with my Aizen Jazzmaster 7 tip and the results were much the same.
I think I am a slack jawed yokel after all.

 

[saxoclese]

This may get all of the "Allard" proponent's panties in a bunch, but if you think of your embouchure muscles as a big rubber band around the mouthpiece while pretending it is a "sour lemon" it should "tighten things up" nicely.

 

[turf3]

This may get all of the "Allard" proponent's panties in a bunch, but if you think of your embouchure muscles as a big rubber band around the mouthpiece while pretending it is a "sour lemon" it should "tighten things up" nicely.

I suspect that if you could examine the microanatomy, when playing, of players with well developed high quality embouchures, that you would find they're all doing pretty much the same thing at the level of the muscles. My suspicion is that the arguments would be found to be arguments about which anatomically-incorrect analogy one uses in visualization, to get the exact same results.

It's kind of like "breathe from the diaphragm" which by now we all know isn't anatomically correct, but seems to be a useful analogy for a large number of people.

 

[saxoclese]

I suspect that if you could examine the microanatomy, when playing, of players with well developed high quality embouchures, that you would find they're all doing pretty much the same thing at the level of the muscles. My suspicion is that the arguments would be found to be arguments about which anatomically-incorrect analogy one uses in visualization, to get the exact same results.

It's kind of like "breathe from the diaphragm" which by now we all know isn't anatomically correct, but seems to be a useful analogy for a large number of people.

My understanding of one of the primary differences between the "Allard embouchure" and the "Teal Wheel embouchure" is that in the Teal embouchure the muscles in the corners of the mouth are tight and the corners are pushed in against the sides of the reed. In the Allard embouchure the corners are relaxed and the pressure used to control the reed comes from the upward motion of the jaw and the lower lip. There are excellent players who use both types of embouchures which tells me there are "many different paths up the mountain" that get to the same destination.