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I think that with all the physical damage on this sax, there is bound to be a whole heap of mechanical issues affecting pad sealing and reliability as well.

Because they are so easy to damage, I would EXPECT a second hand bari to have a heap of issues unless you have excellent evidence otherwise.
Hence a fair bit ot buyer beware involved here.
But you (we) buy and sell and repair things, and see tons of horns each year. Most folks do not.

Here is the element of scum in the buyer's description: " I don't foresee any problems with the pads or leaks. I'm able to play it just fine. "

To most folks, that would seem like a good confirmation that the horn is in playable, good condition. But for you or I, the semantics seem intentionally evasive.

I don't ascribe to the victim being at fault here, though.

'Dad asked for add'l photos, showing details of any damage which was not apparent in the initial set of pics. My understanding is, the seller failed to provide such photos, which would have revealed the significant damage aforementioned.

This is where the seller is in an indefensible position, IMHO. It's not an iron-clad case, but I think the buyer is in a pretty good position here...particularly considering the seller's apparent lack of effort in coming to a more negotiated resolution. Just my 2 cents...
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
I think you are gonna win this dispute.

have you spoken to a dispute service agent at PayPal ?

It might behoove you to take it somewhere and get a written estimate of repairs. This then can be uploaded to your PayPal case file and it becomes part of the review process.
Yes I did speak to a rep.
PP wants documentation.....
In order to continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim that the item is damaged or significantly not as described. Please obtain a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than you).

This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. Please do not proceed with any repairs or alterations to the item, as doing so will limit our ability to successfully resolve your claim, and may result in the cancellation of your dispute.


It sounds like doing this will result in a favorable result as the rep said with this documentation I would need to send the item back for a refund.
It all sounds good, but I am cautiously optimistic.
 

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In order to continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim that the item is damaged or significantly not as described...... ......
Just wanted to add a suggestion that you provide pictures which map more directly to the pictures which the seller provided in their ad (or that they sent to you). For example, there was one from the seller which shows the sax lying in the case, from above. From this angle, the lip of the bell *seems* to be undented. Pictures you provided to us, of the condition the sax arrived in, appear to show significant dents in this area, but they don't show the sax from the exact same angle from above. If a picture of the sax after it arrived, from the exact same angle as what the seller used in his ad, shows damage which is missing from the pictures the seller provided, I think it will strengthen your case.
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 ·
Thanks for the idea harmonizerNJ, I will try that only getting closer to see if the damage shows up.
It might be that the bell damage is hidden by the case, but we'll see.
 

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Just because he said he spent the money doesn't mean he did, but even if that is true paypal can still
give you a credit and take it directly from his bank account, even if he has no funds in the account they
still may give you a credit and hold the amount against him for future transactions. If you feel (amandasdad)
that he did not treat you fairly, I am not interested in making a call, continue on with your dispute
and I would ask you that you would be fair in your proceeding, not saying you wouldn't be. However
I have in a similar situation initially gone for blood because I was pissed, and had to listen to my wife
to be fair to the other party and myself, which was sage advice, best of luck. Oh and I can see
you get your kicks buying horns, however I applaud you providing so lavishly for your daughter. Jay.
 

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Yes I did speak to a rep.
PP wants documentation.....
In order to continue with our investigation, we need documentation supporting your claim that the item is damaged or significantly not as described. Please obtain a document (such as an estimate or invoice) from an unbiased third-party, such as a dealer, repair shop, appraiser, or another individual or organization that is qualified in the area of the item in question (other than you).

This document should detail the extent of the damage or clearly explain how the item received significantly differs from the item advertised. Please do not proceed with any repairs or alterations to the item, as doing so will limit our ability to successfully resolve your claim, and may result in the cancellation of your dispute.


It sounds like doing this will result in a favorable result as the rep said with this documentation I would need to send the item back for a refund.
It all sounds good, but I am cautiously optimistic.
This is what I was mentioning yesterday.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Jay, thanks for the reply.
I don't feel I am going for blood.
Horn came in & I did not feel (as others do too) that the horn was correctly represented.
Contacted the seller stating I was not happy with the condition and was told in no uncertain terms that he was not going to accept a return & I opened a dispute. Seller quickly turned it into a claim! I will be taking the sax in tomorrow for an evaluation/documentation of the work needed and will be faxing that to PP.

Thanks for the reference to Amanda. Doesn't help that I probably have a minor case of CBD!!
Though the purchase of the bari was because Amanda thinks she has the best chance of cracking the 'Lunch Break' band as a bari player.
How tough is it?? The lead Alto is a graduate of Berklee!! The lead tenor player has been in the band for at least 3 years.
From their website, "The top student band, Lunch Break has taken top honors at the Reno Jazz festival several times."
It has also gone to the Monterey Jazz Festival a couple of times.

maddenma, thanks for that.
 

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Jay, thanks for the reply.
I don't feel I am going for blood.
Horn came in & I did not feel (as others do too) that the horn was correctly represented.
Contacted the seller stating I was not happy with the condition and was told in no uncertain terms that he was not going to accept a return & I opened a dispute. Seller quickly turned it into a claim! I will be taking the sax in tomorrow for an evaluation/documentation of the work needed and will be faxing that to PP.

maddenma, thanks for that.
I think you misunderstood me, I was simply making a suggestion for fairness, I was by no
means suggesting you had gone over the line. You will probably see that Ebay/Paypal will
generally side with the buyer to the point it will allow the buyer to screw the seller badly
at times. I will be very surprised if you don't get compensated in the ballpark of $250-400.
 

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Though the purchase of the bari was because Amanda thinks she has the best chance of cracking the 'Lunch Break' band as a bari player.
How tough is it?? The lead Alto is a graduate of Berklee!! The lead tenor player has been in the band for at least 3 years.
From their website, "The top student band, Lunch Break has taken top honors at the Reno Jazz festival several times."
It has also gone to the Monterey Jazz Festival a couple of times.
This is off topic but the lead alto player Lito is amazing, he was one of the BEST players here back in Berklee. Nicest cat ever to boot.
 

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Amanda sounds like a talented player herself to be in that company. Dad I can dig you wanting to get her a better bari than a Chinese horn. Still got my fingers crossed but I think your case looks solid. The pics themselves speak volumes toward the sellers deception of true condition.
 

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Discussion Starter · #51 ·
This is off topic but the lead alto player Lito is amazing, he was one of the BEST players here back in Berklee. Nicest cat ever to boot.
JackLi, we went 'off topic' (Repair Estimates) long ago. Yeah, the whole band is pretty amazing, though they did not get a Monterey invite this year. :(
Lito is amazing......Last year it was Jacob Scesney!!!

 
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