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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just received a bari I purchased from a out-of-state seller.
I understand about the possible pitfalls of doing this, and I thought I asked a pointed question regarding the condition, "Can I get some more detailed pictures, especially where you see any dings & dents. I see the lacquer 'wear', although that big area does not look like 'wear'. Any leaks or any other issues?"
This was his reply, "The pads are pretty good. I don't foresee any problems with the pads or leaks. I'm able to play it just fine. It does need a brace and I have one that I can send along with this instrument. I don't have the screws that go to it."

Here are the images sent me:


Here's what I got:


Yes, i have opened a dispute, but just in case it comes down to it, any ideas on how much this would cost to bring it into nice condition, meaning mostly dent work & re-soldering.
 

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I can't see any difference.
Those are really nice horns.
I just had one in the shop that I needed to fabricate a neck brace, 2 pads, 2 screws, 2 key corks, straighten bent keys, adjust and oil complete, straighten bell flair and reachable bell dents.
I charged $150 so that would be $300 in most shops.
Yours looks twice as bad as the one I did so I would estimate $600. You could probably find a shop that would do it for $1200.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
hornfixer, you sir have a much better eye for these things than I.
I cannot see the problems with the bell rim on those original images.
And while 20/20 hindsight is perfect, I don't see all the dents, 'pull-up'(?) & really shoddy soldering on the loop and the areas where the braces pushed into the body.

But you have answered my question on a rebuild estimate & I thank you for that.

Also disturbing is the fact that after asking about ANY dents or issues there was no mention of these, or detailed pictures.
I suppose that 'playable' means it makes noise and not necessarily that you can play along in a band situation!
 

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Part of the problem with buying a used sax that will be shipped to you is that commonly used terms such as "playable" can mean just about anything.

I notice it is a YBS-52. I play tested one of these recently and the intonation was wonderful, from the top to the bottom. It was just locked in. I wish you the best outcome, whichever way you choose to follow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Part of the problem with buying a used sax that will be shipped to you is that commonly used terms such as "playable" can mean just about anything.
After all these years buying on eBay i am still "learning" what terms can mean.
An "ugly" item can mean that the case is broken (as in a chunk broken off!).
I am now learning that if a buyer opens a dispute the seller can escalate it to a claim and put in the last word unless the person reviewing the case asks for more info.
I did send an email to PP with more info, including the fact that the sax does not 'play'.

Inspecting the sax some more, the bottom key guard post is not OEM as genuine key guard screws do not fit..


The loop brace, besides VERY shotty soldering work is not place on the loop correctly..


Which mis-aligns the keys on the loop, especially the octave key...
(width is correct but the post is oval instead of round & does not have Yamaha logo)


Even the brace that was supplied (I was told of this so this was not a surprise, but....) is from a different sax!


Not that it really has a bearing on all this but I had a really bad feeling after I paid & was told by the seller that he was a Band Director........

I am not holding my breath on winning this dispute because of the fact that the seller said there were dents and "playable", whatever the f that means!

JIC it goes against me, does anybody have an estimate on how much it would be to get the 'loop' fixed as that is the worst area.
 

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I use Bruce Belo, but he is in Aneheim.
He is fair but not cheap.
His work is suberb.
He is very good at "body work" and does most of it while I watch.
I know that the loop is a difficult part to work on.
The last horn he overhauled (Buescher C melody) cost about $750.00 and that was 4 or 5 years ago.
I don't know how much a bari like that would cost but i think double that price.
 

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amandas dad i wouldn't be pleased receving a horn like this either. it's not like it was a real bargain either, right? i'd return it and look for something else.

alternatively, ask the pros here on the forum about what the horn is worth in this state - and negotiate appropriatedly.
 

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The more I look at this, the more I agree with the above. Initially looking at this, I thought: it is a bit of a tough call....I mean, arguably the seller really DID send pics covering the entire horn. And I bet it DOES actually play. Techs can make the darndest things still play. In his defense.

But ...no pics of his were detail pics. And his commentary is specious for what is NOT stated.

Which is where you have a right to be miffed.

The thing with BigHorns is, stuff like post impactions and brace impactions....damage into the tube or upper bow/crook...those are NOT very accessible to a lotta standard dent tooling .

The lower bow and bell stuff is easy.

The upper crook looks out-of-round, also. That needs fixin', too.

But that bellbrace impaction into the tube ? :dazed:

Only one way to remedy that....you gotta get a rod and ball INSIDE the tube, and unsolder the brace apparatus first. Yes, there are some end-arounds but they will not get it back to where it should be.

The WORST damage on any horn is a bellbrace impaction. Because it isn't just a dent....it actually has moved portions of the body and likely misaligned the keys. Might also have created binding in the key barrels.

My guess here is you might have a case here where the removal of the upper bow (i.e. unsoldering it to gain access to the elbows and the body tube) is the preferred and required method of repair...in which case, before any dent is even touched it is gonna cost $150-200.

I think this is a $400-700 repair job, honestly.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
amandas dad i wouldn't be pleased receving a horn like this either. it's not like it was a real bargain either, right? i'd return it and look for something else.

alternatively, ask the pros here on the forum about what the horn is worth in this state - and negotiate appropriatedly.
Thanks all for the comments.
saxtech, $1900 is not a "real bargain" IMO. When I contacted the seller, he stated, "Ive already used most of the proceeds for other things and I cannot reimburse you for the sax."
 

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Thanks all for the comments.
saxtech, $1900 is not a "real bargain" IMO. When I contacted the seller, he stated, "Ive already used most of the proceeds for other things and I cannot reimburse you for the sax."
Sort of a disaster. You could have gotten a brand new Taishan or it's ilk for that and still have had several hundred left over to have it perfectly adjusted... ( http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?209045-Taishan-Fit-amp-Finish )( http://forum.saxontheweb.net/showth...of-the-infamous-chinese-Ebay-Baritone!!/page7 )

This does not look even close to a $1900 dollar baritone to me- Yamaha mid line model or no. There are a LOT of used name brand student bari's out there in much better shape for a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars even if you (and if you don't work on things yourself it's understandable) shy away from the Chinese models.

If you DID buy it from EBay you ought to be able to open and win a "not as described" case. You'll be out shipping but the sellers cash flow problems are his alone and eBay will cough up the dough via PayPal whether or not he has the funds after you've shipped it back with a signature confirmed delivery.

If you bought it from some other source you're relying on the kindness of strangers by and large. Didn't work for Ms. DuBois and may well not for you. Sorry it came to this.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sort of a disaster. You could have gotten a brand new Taishan or it's ilk for that and still have had several hundred left over to have it perfectly adjusted...
This does not look even close to a $1900 dollar baritone to me- Yamaha mid line model or no. There are a LOT of used name brand student bari's out there in much better shape for a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars even if you (and if you don't work on things yourself it's understandable) shy away from the Chinese models.........
If you bought it from some other source you're relying on the kindness of strangers by and large. Didn't work for Ms. DuBois and may well not for you. Sorry it came to this.
Henry D, I was seriously thinking about the Taishan, and if you search my posts you will find that I purchased a curved sop Taishan to see the 'fit & finish' first hand.
I thought the F&F was slightly below (my) standards. When I searched the 'net I came across this horn.
Obviously I did not anticipate all the issues that I realized it had when I saw it in person.
I still look at the pictures sent to me (first set in this thread) and think to myself that if the dents shown on those, and the brace (and if an original brace was provided) where the only issues I would be OK with the $1900. Something I could give to Amanda to play and maybe in 6 months to a year down the road, when I have some more money, take it in for 'repairs'. But in it's current state it is not playable and I really don't have much for any repairs.

This was paid for via Paypal & they state this:
Buyer Protection
If an eligible item that you've purchased online, eBay or otherwise, doesn't arrive or doesn't match the seller's description, we will look into it. If it's discovered that something is wrong, our Purchase Protection will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item plus shipping costs.

I suppose I should now look into what an eligible item is, but I think a sax should be covered.
BTW this was NOT a personal payment in case anyone is wondering.
 

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Henry D, I was seriously thinking about the Taishan, and if you search my posts you will find that I purchased a curved sop Taishan to see the 'fit & finish' first hand.
I thought the F&F was slightly below (my) standards. When I searched the 'net I came across this horn.
Obviously I did not anticipate all the issues that I realized it had when I saw it in person.
This was paid for via Paypal & they state this:
Buyer Protection
If an eligible item that you've purchased online, eBay or otherwise, doesn't arrive or doesn't match the seller's description, we will look into it. If it's discovered that something is wrong, our Purchase Protection will reimburse you for the full purchase price of the item plus shipping costs.

I suppose I should now look into what an eligible item is, but I think a sax should be covered.
BTW this was NOT a personal payment in case anyone is wondering.
At least there's a decent chance with Paypal then. I'd think the documentation of what the seller described vice what you got would probably be murkier than in an eBay transaction with a "listing" to go by but it's surely worth pursuing. I also don't know if they take the financial risk for any reimbursement for non eBay transactions- IE they might not pay until the seller pays them unlike with an eBay case. Normally, because of it's susceptibility to alteration, e-mails aren't accepted as documentation unless they go through the PayPal system. Hopefully there was a web site description that led you to this and which could serve as a basis for your claimed discrepancy. Truly, this does indeed... well, "suck" is the best single word I can come up with here. Good luck to you.

FWIW, you truly don't play the shine and several hundred bucks later it may be a wonderful playing horn if it comes to that.
 

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There are a LOT of used name brand student bari's out there in much better shape for a thousand to fifteen hundred dollars even if you (and if you don't work on things yourself it's understandable) shy away from the Chinese models.

If you DID buy it from EBay you ought to be able to open and win a "not as described" case. You'll be out shipping but the sellers cash flow problems are his alone and eBay will cough up the dough via PayPal whether or not he has the funds after you've shipped it back with a signature confirmed delivery.
Yup. That's what I'd do. I think even half price would not have been a great deal for the horn you have received.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Therein lies my conundrum!
Everything I have read is that this is a really good bari.
But if I have to drop another $500-700 into this one, would I be better served to buy another (IN PERSON or reputable seller) for $2400-2600?

Anyway, I doubt the seller would be willing to refund what it would take to get this one in (real) playing condition.
Probably an 'all or nothing' situation.

As far as the Taishan......jury is still out, but there are other options in the used market for a Low-A bari for $2000 and under IF the decision is in my favor.
 

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Therein lies my conundrum!
Everything I have read is that this is a really good bari.
But if I have to drop another $500-700 into this one, would I be better served to buy another (IN PERSON or reputable seller) for $2400-2600?

Anyway, I doubt the seller would be willing to refund what it would take to get this one in (real) playing condition.
Probably an 'all or nothing' situation.

As far as the Taishan......jury is still out, but there are other options in the used market for a Low-A bari for $2000 and under IF the decision is in my favor.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BUESCHER-SA...288?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c7dab3cf8
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Buescher-bu...331?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item258a3984e3
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jupiter-Bar...600?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c3cfa6308

I'm not recommending you jump on any of these in particular- but if you're in the twenty five hundred buck range (which you are with repairs) there are options if you wait and watch.

Your horn in the shape I'd want it to have been for $1900 (will probably go to $2500, what you'll wind up at after repairs)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yamaha-YBS-...233?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d19830ef1

A perfectly nice Taiwanese model for a bit less than what you'll sink in the 52. (The YBS IS a nice model, but not every 52 is nice; my Civic was nice when new, but not even I would call it that any longer... Serviceable is what we're - me with the car, you with the 52- looking for at best now.)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jupiter-JBS...371?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cdd4f67a3

And, of course, after repairs, your horn may well be a fine playing very serviceable instrument with a fundamentally excellent design beneath the battle scars; nothing in it to keep anyone from sitting first chair given practice and talent.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Looks like you are stuck with it.
Learn from this.
At least you do have a great horn.
Wish I could help.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_sac...YBS-52+Baritone+Saxophone&LH_Complete=1&rt=nc
Here is what thy are selling for.
HF, can you expand on why you would say that it looks like I am stuck with it?
As far as 'learn from this', I cannot see what I could have done differently other than to ask for a video of him playing the horn!
I specifically "Can I get some more detailed pictures, especially where you see any dings & dents.....Any leaks or any other issues?" and the only response was about the pads. Maybe I should have pressed harder? Again 20/20 hindsight is always perfect.

And the link provided shows many that did not sell, including Quinn's at $2200.
The button you should be linking to is the 'SOLD Lisings' , not the 'Completed Listings.'...
But this is not about whether $1900 is fair or not, I think most will agree "Not", but whether the pictures and response detailed the sax's condition.
I think not, he is stating he did.

I think he knows what he pulled and is hoping the 50/50 shot will go his way.
 

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I thought you said he wasn't going to refund.
I tried to show you the value.
I tried to show sold listings.
anyhow, To bad you couldn't ship it to me. I could do all repairs for $300, but I will only be doing this kind of work for one more month.
Good luck with whatever you do.
 
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