[Sharkey]

I have seen a number of baritone saxes for sale which have fairly deep pings or dents in all parts of the upper crook area . Knowing nothing about sax repairs , can these problems be sorted out, with out taking crook itself apart ? Same question for bow . Assuming none of the dents are pulling linkages or tone holes etc. out of alinement . Thank You in advance for any and all advise

 

[saxoclese]

I am assuming you are referring not only to the neck (crook) part that is removable but the tubing that it connects to that is sometimes called the "U joint" or pigtail. That part does need to be removed to get at the dents with conventional dent rods and balls, which on some makes and models requires unsoldering the fixture from the body. That part is certainly prone to damage due to its location---especially if it is a bari that has been used in a school setting.

 

[JayeLID]

I have seen a number of baritone saxes for sale which have fairly deep pings or dents in all parts of the upper crook area . Knowing nothing about sax repairs , can these problems be sorted out, with out taking crook itself apart ? Same question for bow . Assuming none of the dents are pulling linkages or tone holes etc. out of alinement . Thank You in advance for any and all advise

Almost every baritone I refurbish has had its upper bow taken apart. If there are significant dents there, there is truly no other way to get those out.

I know, I know there are small dent rods which are J-shaped or s-shaped and all of that...and some folks might even posit that magnetic dent removal system would work...but the results are always gonna be quite compromised.

This is why you see Bighorns with this sort of condition go relatively cheaply, used. Because

1) those dents NEED to be removed (they can mess with intonation)

2) the only way to do that is to have a tech disassemble the upper bow.

It's no BIG deal for a decent tech, really. For an owner, the 'downsides' are:

1) it isn't a cheap job...most techs I know will charge around $300 for disassembling, cleaning, removing dents, reassembling (resoldering on) and replacing a couple of pads up there.

2) the likelihood is the lacquer is gonna be lost at the ferrule joints as well as possibly where the loops connect to the body via the brace(s). So you are gonna have bare brass up there. It could of course be spot-lacqued, but it is still never gonna look the same as the original finish.

Again, no way around this really. An added bonus from a tech/owner perspective:

there is now easy access to the body tube and even lower bow (where, surely there'd be add'l dents if the upper bow is dented up).

If the upper bow is clean and the dents are on the body tube and lower bow, a tech might decide to remove the bow and bellpiece instead (or if they are crafty perhaps the can leave the bell attached via the bellbrace, and just remove the bow...but I'd say that's a dicey proposition).

Quick story...my first Baritone (and second sax) was a Noblet low Bb. I got it for a song, and for the most part it was in good playing shape. It had dents and dings, and significant ones on the upper bow, including dents on the upper elbow, a moderate one on the vertical 'tube' connecting to the lower elbow, and a twist/flattening to the lower elbow.

It DID play up and down pretty well, and after a quick hour at my tech, it played quite well from a 'notes are easy to get to speak' point of view.
It had some odd intonation issues, particularly second octave and up, but those were lippable and I was quite limited on mouthpieces which worked. My tech did note that the keyheights seemed to be all over the place, but he chose not to mess with those (due to my budget). We decided when I had the $, I'd come back and he'd disassemble to bow and get it all nice again.

So a few months later, he did that. And when I got it back, I was all excited. BUT...the intonation issues were even WORSE than before. He ascertained that some tech previously had regulated the horn to try to diminish the issues resulting from the damage up top. He kept the horn for another couple of days and returned the keyheights to 'normal-ish' throughout.
And she played like a dream, and now was able to take a greater variety of mouthpieces ....

So, there ya' are.

 

[Sharkey]

I realize that all dents are different and bigger is worse , in the crook area will a couple dents ,one flat and a deep ping make a difference in sound ? Going on provided info that horn is playable ,( trying to read between the lines on this one ) I know that dents in a lead pipe of a trumpet are not a good thing , are dents in a crook less critical being it is of larger diameter , thanks

 

[JayeLID]

Here are some examples of some of my repaired upper bows, over the years....in some cases I used some colorant/fake patina juice to tone down the hue differences between the lacq and unlacqued areas, fairly successfully (these were all old horns with a lotta lacq wear anyway)...
When it comes to aesthetics taking a hit in order to return a horn to its proper geometry, it's a no-brainer for me...aesthetics will never win out.

 

[JayeLID]

I realize that all dents are different and bigger is worse , in the crook area will a couple dents ,one flat and a deep ping make a difference in sound ? Going on provided info that horn is playable ,( trying to read between the lines on this one ) I know that dents in a lead pipe of a trumpet are not a good thing , are dents in a crook less critical being it is of larger diameter , thanks

Post a photo.

Dings usually not really significant, dents are...but definitions of one vs. the other can be subjective...IMHO if the damage actually is significantly impacting the cross section of the tube (which should be pretty darn round everywhere) then it's better to remove it than leave it.

 

[saxoclese]

With regard to removing dents in "necks" using magnets, my mentor came up with a novel idea. Since his dent skills far exceed my own, I took a vintage Conn tenor to him to do the dent removal. There were several dents of various sizes in the neck. I asked him how he removed them. He said I got most of them out using magnets. I replied aren't the steel balls small enough to fit in a neck too small to have enough mass for the magnets to be effective. He said that is normally the case, but I took my most powerful magnet and attached a strong 3/4" magnet to it which "focused" the magnetic pull against the smaller ball enough to roll the dent out. I haven't tried this myself, but thought I would pass it on since we are on that topic.

 

[Sharkey]

Thanks for all the responses , from what I am reading this type of repair could add up fairly quick . Sounds like half a grand or more for work on top and bottom ,am I in the ball park ?

 

[Sharkey]

Sorry cant post a pic , only cave man tech. here, stone knives , bear claws and the like

 

[JayeLID]

Thanks for all the responses , from what I am reading this type of repair could add up fairly quick . Sounds like half a grand or more for work on top and bottom ,am I in the ball park ?

The thing is...if we are talking SOLELY about dentwork, $500 should get you a LOT of dentwork. Prices vary by region....typically the upper bow work, including disassembly and re-assembly, and replacing of the E and F pads - runs between $250-350ish, although in places like NY and SF it'd be closer to $500.

Removing body tube and bottom bow dents is pretty easy (UNLESS the body tube is bent due to a drop or fall and the brace is impacted into the tube). So add another $100 for relatively easily-accessible body dent work.

If that is ALL that needs doing, then you might well bring it all in for under $450.

But the thing is...is that ALL that needs doing ? If it's a used horn and the seller will not commit to it NOT needing pad and key work, then yeah...some additional re-regulating, rod cleaning, maybe swedging, some more pads replaced, etc...THAT can get you up into $700 range pretty fast.

This is why you often see Bighorns with upper bow damage...most owners, when left with the decision whether to take the plunge and fix, will forego that work.

 

[JayeLID]

With regard to removing dents in "necks" using magnets, my mentor came up with a novel idea. Since his dent skills far exceed my own, I took a vintage Conn tenor to him to do the dent removal. There were several dents of various sizes in the neck. I asked him how he removed them. He said I got most of them out using magnets. I replied aren't the steel balls small enough to fit in a neck too small to have enough mass for the magnets to be effective. He said that is normally the case, but I took my most powerful magnet and attached a strong 3/4" magnet to it which "focused" the magnetic pull against the smaller ball enough to roll the dent out. I haven't tried this myself, but thought I would pass it on since we are on that topic.

Makes sense, one would be focusing the force more....

 

[JayeLID]

Sorry cant post a pic , only cave man tech. here, stone knives , bear claws and the like

I MISS Bear Claws...none to be found here in the desert....

 

[lostcircuits]

This is my 12M and it really took more than one beating in its life but it plays fantastic. And those are dings and dents and a broken brace but I don't even want to touch it as long as it plays the way it does.

 

[Sharkey]

All those dents and she plays well , that is inspiring hope to the one I just purchased , thanks

 

[lostcircuits]

All those dents and she plays well , that is inspiring hope to the one I just purchased , thanks

Absolutely does, I have a dentless King Zephyr and I prefer the 12M (they are about the same but I don't want to put any dents into the Zephyr. And my bass sax looks like somebody stepped on it, the main tube is bent as hell, the crook looks worse than the bari yet it plays and there is no reason to fix something that isn't broken (in terms of sound).

 

[saxoclese]

From a repair tech's perspective, a saxophone with a lot of dents sends a message that the saxophone has been handled carelessly and/or mistreated. A bari sax from a junior high comes to mind. This is true even if the damage was done before the current owner obtained the horn. I'm not being judgemental, but techs are "hardwired" to want fix problems they see on an instrument. They say the skill of a carpenter can be determined by how he takes care of his tools. This is the context that best describes how I feel.

 

[lostcircuits]

From a repair tech's perspective, a saxophone with a lot of dents sends a message that the saxophone has been handled carelessly and/or mistreated. A bari sax from a junior high comes to mind. This is true even if the damage was done before the current owner obtained the horn. I'm not being judgemental, but techs are "hardwired" to want fix problems they see on an instrument. They say the skill of a carpenter can be determined by how he takes care of his tools. This is the context that best describes how I feel.

And that is absolutely correct. My bass was only affordable because of its cosmetics, my bari was played by Dwight Bement (Frank Zappa) who had a reputation of not being too gentle on his instruments. This one was at a point where no shop wanted to touch it so it ended up in a barn, a mutual friend gave it to me and I brought it back. It was the first horn I ever worked on and I did not even have dent removal tools and just adjusting and straightening out the key work took me about 6 months, mostly because it was a learning curve. But, those dents are battle scars. For the record, I eventually ran into Dwight and I offered to give it back to him and eat my "investments" and he test played it and said "Very nice, I can't believe what you did and now it is yours to keep". And I made a friend.