[pigtastic]

I've been trying to work at my intonation a lot lately, though I just realized that my classical setup (c* + v12 3s) is near effortless by comparison to get most of the standard range in tune. On my jazz setup (v16 s+ 5, v16 3 reeds), most notes from middle e and up are many cents sharp without major voicing adjustment, even with the mouthpiece pulled out far.

I'm wondering if this could be a case of gear being the caveat or if it's just me, and if the gear is a factor, if there were any alternative mouthpieces I should look into? Like I'm not sure if chamber size or what have you could have an effect on intonation, so maybe there are some certain traits I should look for if I try out some new ones.

 

[Dr G]

How are we supposed to guess what horn you are playing?

 

[pigtastic]

Apologies- it's a modern Selmer series ii. I didn't think it'd be too important since every instrument has their quirks

 

[bruce bailey]

Tip opening difference between mouthpieces?

 

[Maddcow]

I'd say that the difference is the mouthpiece tip openings

 

[Reet McVouty]

I'm just having trouble decoding what your mouthpiece selections are? I could make assumptions but then we'd be playing some kind of game ...

 

[J-Moen]

That is a fairly modern horn, one with a lot fewer quirks than say, an older Conn New Wonder - which has its own quirks. Vintage horns, especially some Conns are far better known for these problems. Knowing the horn is a crucial part of the process in diagnosing this is why Dr. G said this. Some vintage horns will have issues with certain mouthpieces. In this case, I don't believe you're issue is the mouthpiece.

The v16 s+ is a great piece, and I don't imagine that is the cause of your troubles. Although, the best experiment you can do would probably be to try a medium chamber just to check.

 

[pigtastic]

I'm using a selmer S80 c* for classical playing and a vandoren v16 s+ 5 for jazz

 

[pigtastic]

That is a fairly modern horn, one with a lot fewer quirks than say, an older Conn New Wonder - which has its own quirks. Vintage horns, especially some Conns. Knowing the horn is a crucial part of the process. Some vintage horns will have issues with certain mouthpieces. In this case, I don't believe you're issue is the mouthpiece.

The v16 s+ is a great piece, and I don't imagine that is the cause of your troubles. Although, the best experiment you can do would probably be to try a medium chamber just to check.

I agree-- the v16 is the best I've played in terms of response, so I don't want to give that up! I guess I may have just gotten a bit too comfortable with it without tuner assistance...

Also notable is that I used a jody jazz HR for a few years before this, which has compressed the cork quite a bit, making the v16 very loose.

 

[J-Moen]

I agree-- the v16 is the best I've played in terms of response, so I don't want to give that up! I guess I may have just gotten a bit too comfortable with it without tuner assistance...

Also notable is that I used a jody jazz HR for a few years before this, which has compressed the cork quite a bit, making the v16 very loose.

The JJ HR is a medium chamber piece, but if the Mouthpiece is not fitting tight, you may need to have the neck recorded or some tape put around it to fill the neck back out. That can cause loads of issues, just like you described.

 

[1saxman]

The V16 is loose on the cork? So how does the Selmer fit? Sometimes when mouthpiece bores are different, you can't use both of them on the same neck. For now, if the Selmer also could fit tighter, you can steam the cork and it will expand a little. A loose fit may not make it play sharp so fixing the cork may not help. My feeling is the V16 mouthpiece is not going to work for you because you would have to play it a lot looser than you are used to with your classical set-up. For example, I would probably use a #2 1/2 Rico on it and have no problem with going sharp, but I learned to use a looser embouchure over 50 years ago.

 

[J-Moen]

The V16 is loose on the cork? So how does the Selmer fit? Sometimes when mouthpiece bores are different, you can't use both of them on the same neck. For now, if the Selmer also could fit tighter, you can steam the cork and it will expand a little. A loose fit may not make it play sharp so fixing the cork may not help. My feeling is the V16 mouthpiece is not going to work for you because you would have to play it a lot looser than you are used to with your classical set-up. For example, I would probably use a #2 1/2 Rico on it and have no problem with going sharp, but I learned to use a looser embouchure over 50 years ago.

I did not know that you could expand a cork! Thanks for teaching me something!

I also should have said the same - Embouchure would be the first culprit imo.

 

[pigtastic]

The V16 is loose on the cork? So how does the Selmer fit? Sometimes when mouthpiece bores are different, you can't use both of them on the same neck. For now, if the Selmer also could fit tighter, you can steam the cork and it will expand a little. A loose fit may not make it play sharp so fixing the cork may not help. My feeling is the V16 mouthpiece is not going to work for you because you would have to play it a lot looser than you are used to with your classical set-up. For example, I would probably use a #2 1/2 Rico on it and have no problem with going sharp, but I learned to use a looser embouchure over 50 years ago.

Thanks for the advice. I may have to try that steaming trick! I wouldn't say the selmer fits loose exactly-- it's just that the point at which it's mostly in tune is a lot further down the cork, making it tighter by comparison. If only there were some shops opened so I could experiment a bit more!

 

[saxoclese]

From an acoustics standpoint, when a conical instrument does not have enough taper the 2nd mode notes are sharp, in other words the octaves become too wide. If the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece is significantly larger than the volume of the "missing cone" it has the same effect as making the instrument have less of a taper. The "effective volume" of a mouthpiece is determined in part by the chamber size, the tip opening, and how far the mouthpiece is pulled off the cork.

The well known and respected jazz and saxophone teacher at Brigham Young University, Dr. Ray Smith has been quoted as saying "if your high notes are sharp---push in". This seemingly contradictory advice is based upon the above acoustic principle along with the concept that playing too high on the mouthpiece pitch exacerbates the tendency of certain notes/registers of the saxophone to play sharp. Pushing the mouthpiece farther onto the cork and opening the teeth to play lower on the mouthpiece/input pitch is one way to address the intonation problem mentioned in this thread. Of course playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch can only go so far while still retaining a "classical" tonal concept.

 

[pigtastic]

From an acoustics standpoint, when a conical instrument does not have enough taper the 2nd mode notes are sharp, in other words the octaves become too wide. If the "effective volume" of the mouthpiece is significantly larger than the volume of the "missing cone" it has the same effect as making the instrument have less of a taper. The "effective volume" of a mouthpiece is determined in part by the chamber size, the tip opening, and how far the mouthpiece is pulled off the cork.

The well known and respected jazz and saxophone teacher at Brigham Young University, Dr. Ray Smith has been quoted as saying "if your high notes are sharp---push in". This seemingly contradictory advice is based upon the above acoustic principle along with the concept that playing too high on the mouthpiece pitch exacerbates the tendency of certain notes/registers of the saxophone to play sharp. Pushing the mouthpiece farther onto the cork and opening the teeth to play lower on the mouthpiece/input pitch is one way to address the intonation problem mentioned in this thread. Of course playing lower on the mouthpiece pitch can only go so far while still retaining a "classical" tonal concept.

Very interesting. Well, since I'm fairly satisfied by comparison with my classical tone/intonation, I don't think that'll be too big a problem. But just to make sure, for my v16, by "lower on the mouthpiece," you mean to put more mouthpiece in my mouth in addition to sliding the mouthpiece down further?

 

[1saxman]

That's all well and good but you should not have to jump through these hoops to use a certain mouthpiece. To me and probably most others, it means the mouthpiece doesn't work for you if it doesn't perform when you play it the regular way. We all have our ways of playing and we don't change that because of a mouthpiece - we find the mouthpiece that works for us.

 

[saxoclese]

Very interesting. Well, since I'm fairly satisfied by comparison with my classical tone/intonation, I don't think that'll be too big a problem. But just to make sure, for my v16, by "lower on the mouthpiece," you mean to put more mouthpiece in my mouth in addition to sliding the mouthpiece down further?

Not exactly. "Opening the teeth" is just another way of saying to "bite less" and relax or loosen the embouchure. The mouthpiece should stay the same distance inside the mouth. This may or may not help, but it is one more thing you may want to try.

 

[lydian]

Very interesting. Well, since I'm fairly satisfied by comparison with my classical tone/intonation, I don't think that'll be too big a problem. But just to make sure, for my v16, by "lower on the mouthpiece," you mean to put more mouthpiece in my mouth in addition to sliding the mouthpiece down further?

I think he means lower in pitch, mouth open wider.

In my experience, a classical type embouchure doesn't jive with a more open mouthpiece. The tendency is to bite in order to make the tip opening the same as it was on the closed classical mouthpiece so that the notes speak the same. This naturally raises the pitch, and the tone and control go out the window. An open jazz mouthpiece requires a totally different approach.

The V16 is fine, not a "mismatch" with the horn. But you're going to have to spend a lot of time to develop jazz chops and get it under control. If you can't find a jazz teacher right now, watch lots of videos of the masters whose sound you want to emulate, try to make your embouchure look like theirs, then try to sound like them, copying the timbre, tone, inflections, style, etc.

 

[pigtastic]

Not exactly. "Opening the teeth" is just another way of saying to "bite less" and relax or loosen the embouchure. The mouthpiece should stay the same distance inside the mouth. This may or may not help, but it is one more thing you may want to try.

Ahh, I understand. I'm definitely seeing some results with this. I suppose since my classical TA told me that any sort of jaw movement is wrong, I assumed any pitch correction should be done with the tongue/throat only. I guess jaw movement is more acceptable in jazz generally (even though I still mostly bend notes with voicing), so I'll experiment with this.

 

[lydian]

I guess jaw movement is more acceptable in jazz generally (even though I still mostly bend notes with voicing), so I'll experiment with this.

Check out this video at the 30 second mark. This is typical of a jazz player. Very different from the classical approach. However there are jazz players (i.e., Paul Desmond) which have a very classical sound and probably a more classical embouchure to go with it.
https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showt...to-determine&p=4133990&viewfull=1#post4133990