[seoulite]

I bought a rs berkeley chris potter from someone who sent the mpc to Max from ASC to reface right before selling it to me. I was told that it was somewhat stuffy and had a little too much resistance. I received the mouthpiece and was blown away. I didn't detect any kind of bad resistance and stuffiness. The mouthpiece was superb and is one of the best metal piece I've owned and tried.

Having been very impressed, I naturally ordered a mpc he designed and sent some mpcs to reface. Plus, the price of the mpc(only 145 usd!) was very affordable, so it was an easy decision to make. His reface rates is also very low too. I had him make it to be loud and on the brighter side of the spectrum.
Here's what I wrote to him after receiving the pieces:

I'm surprised at how much I like the klum florida. Before the reface, I thought it was pretty nice, but not super amazing. I feel like it is now. It has a really nice singing quality to it.
Your Foehn was so much fun to play! The tone is so thick and colorful. The altissimo range is a breeze to play. It projects almost as well as a high step baffle mouthpiece. This will definitely be my go to piece when I need to be loud.

I'm a very satisfied customer and highly recommend that you check him out.

https://avelsoundconcept.com/

 

[Nefertiti]

I like his photos and description of previous work. Very interesting........

https://avelsoundconcept.com/previous-work/

 

[meven ASC]

...
Your Foehn was so much fun to play! The tone is so thick and colorful. The altissimo range is a breeze to play. It projects almost as well as a high step baffle mouthpiece. This will definitely be my go to piece when I need to be loud.

I'm a very satisfied customer and highly recommend that you check him out.

https://avelsoundconcept.com/

Thank you very much for the quick review of my ASC Foehn 7 tenor mouthpiece.

I am glad you like the "power curve" i put on it. I was initially going to go with my standard radial curve but since you wanted the extra power, i went with something a bit more special, i.e. the souped up V8 version instead of the standard V6 to make an automobile analogy!

 

[meven ASC]

I like his photos and description of previous work. Very interesting........

https://avelsoundconcept.com/previous-work/

Oops, I did not realise i may have some readers for that section... i hope i have not offended too many people. I tend to speak my mind when i see issues with mouthpieces. (It has already caused me some problems with one manufacturer...)

Anyway, glad you enjoyed that section of my website. I try to keep it regularly updated.

 

[Nefertiti]

Oops, I did not realise i may have some readers for that section... i hope i have not offended too many people. I tend to speak my mind when i see issues with mouthpieces. (It has already caused me some problems with one manufacturer...)

Anyway, glad you enjoyed that section of my website. I try to keep it regularly updated.

I'm curious,, is there a set of general descriptions that would differentiate the differences between a radial facing curve and an elliptical? I haven't heard those two words before and I see on this page that you mostly use radial but on the one Double Ring Otto Link you use a elliptical to stay with the vibe of the piece. I guess I was just curious what the vibe of the piece would be if the curve was radial instead? Thanks, Steve

 

[MojoBari]

It is usually up to the refacer to choose the shape of the target curve based on what they think the client will like. It is an art in itself. Plus, there can be more than one good choice.

Elliptical facings add some “good” resistance to the curve. But if you compare a long elliptical facing to a medium radial facing, you can get one that has the same blowing resistance overall. The elliptical curve will have a touch more resistance for the palm key notes and altissimo and a touch lower resistance for low note response. It is hardly noticeable unless you try the two facings side by side. It depends on the degree (Aspect Ratio) of the ellipse too.

But even then, they have to be of similar quality. A real nice radial facing (even, no bumps or flat spots) will play better than a so-so elliptical facing and vise versa.

Power curves are another story...

 

[sax.hobby]

How and where does one learn about the different facings typically used in mouthpieces and how to tell between good/not so good ones (beside being an apprentice)? I don't necessarily want to become a refacer, but I find it somewhat interesting and it would be nice to be able to recognize/appreciate refacing works in a more informed manner.

 

[Tzadik]

I'm curious, is there a set of general descriptions that would differentiate the differences between a radial facing curve and an elliptical?

A radial curve is an approximation of an arch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_(geometry)) of a circle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle).
A elliptical curve is an approximation of an arch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc_(geometry)) of a ellipse (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipse).

Then it comes the facing length, the tip opening... and other parameters.

Think that Vandoren e Navarro use radial curves... but the facing are completely different and they feel completely different.
So it's not just about the "shape" of the facing curve, it's about the overall dimension, control points of the curve etc etc...

 

[Nefertiti]

How and where does one learn about the different facings typically used in mouthpieces and how to tell between good/not so good ones (beside being an apprentice)? I don't necessarily want to become a refacer, but I find it somewhat interesting and it would be nice to be able to recognize/appreciate refacing works in a more informed manner.

My old repairman Ernie Sola got into it by measuring all the mouthpiece facings that came into his repair shop with horns. He kept all the facing numbers in a book and was fascinated by the different curves. I came in with some Freddie Gregory's once and he was super excited to measure them out and see what curves Freddie was using.........

 

[sax.hobby]

My old repairman Ernie Sola got into it by measuring all the mouthpiece facings that came into his repair shop with horns. He kept all the facing numbers in a book and was fascinated by the different curves. I came in with some Freddie Gregory's once and he was super excited to measure them out and see what curves Freddie was using.........

Interesting. Thank you for relating that. I wish someone would publish a book about this topic, perhaps something like Stephen Howard's Saxophone Manual. That would be a significant contribution to the general community (and a nice lasting legacy).

 

[meven ASC]

I'm curious,, is there a set of general descriptions that would differentiate the differences between a radial facing curve and an elliptical? I haven't heard those two words before and I see on this page that you mostly use radial but on the one Double Ring Otto Link you use a elliptical to stay with the vibe of the piece. I guess I was just curious what the vibe of the piece would be if the curve was radial instead? Thanks, Steve

Hey Steve, Keith said it all and in a far more eloquent manner than i would have been able to explain!

With regards to the DR, my choice was to go with the elliptical curve to add a touch of resistance. I feel these pieces play better like that rather than when they are freeblowing.
The radial curve would have been too freeblowing for it and i think it would have lost its "vintage" character. The owner is receiving it tomorrow so fingers crossed i made the right the decision!

 

[meven ASC]

How and where does one learn about the different facings typically used in mouthpieces and how to tell between good/not so good ones (beside being an apprentice)? I don't necessarily want to become a refacer, but I find it somewhat interesting and it would be nice to be able to recognize/appreciate refacing works in a more informed manner.

Personally, i learned on my own. There are no refacers where i live so that's part of the reasons why i started it.

I learned by doing a lot of research and a lot of trial and errors on cheap plastic blanks. I also bought countless mouthpieces to measure and compare curves.

It's a time and financially consuming approach but i absolutely loved the entire process. As i continue to do this, i keep learning every day and i love the reward of bringing a mouthpiece back to life and listening to the beautiful sound it makes.

 

[meven ASC]

My old repairman Ernie Sola got into it by measuring all the mouthpiece facings that came into his repair shop with horns. He kept all the facing numbers in a book and was fascinated by the different curves. I came in with some Freddie Gregory's once and he was super excited to measure them out and see what curves Freddie was using.........

That's pretty much what i do. I measure every single mouthpiece i can get my hands on and keep a database of facings plus other parameters with comments on how they play and try to understand why they play in a certain way.

 

[sax.hobby]

It's quite amazing to imagine the amount of research and experimentations that would be required to establish such knowledge base from the ground up yourself. Thanks for sharing on how you get started. Very cool.

 

[B Flat]

I have measured many Mouthpiece facing curves and to be honest haven’t found that there is much difference between them.
Particularly when a number of pieces were faced by the same person.
Also interestingly I have noted that many tenor and Baritone pieces had close to identical facings when faced by the same person.
Even when tip openings were quite different.
Facing length differences were more noticeable in pieces with larger chambers and rollover baffles to those with smaller chambers and higher baffles.
But amongst similar type pieces, the differences were minimal.
Eg: I have 5 pieces, 2 Tenor and 3 Baritone.
They all have facings by the same refacer/facer.
Two of them were refaced at my request and the three others were purchased by me already with these facings.
They range in opening from .95 up to .118.
With my 5 points measurements, they are all extremely close to identical.
Therefore it would seem to me that this particular mouthpiece facer/refacer uses the same curve for pretty much everything.
Whilst I have no issue with this because they are all great pieces for me, I don’t particularly believe that there is as much thought put in to it as some might have you believe.

 

[Nefertiti]

I have measured many Mouthpiece facing curves and to be honest haven't found that there is much difference between them.
Particularly when a number of pieces were faced by the same person.
Also interestingly I have noted that many tenor and Baritone pieces had close to identical facings when faced by the same person.
Even when tip openings were quite different.
Facing length differences were more noticeable in pieces with larger chambers and rollover baffles to those with smaller chambers and higher baffles.
But amongst similar type pieces, the differences were minimal.
Eg: I have 5 pieces, 2 Tenor and 3 Baritone.
They all have facings by the same refacer/facer.
Two of them were refaced at my request and the three others were purchased by me already with these facings.
They range in opening from .95 up to .118.
With my 5 points measurements, they are all extremely close to identical.
Therefore it would seem to me that this particular mouthpiece facer/refacer uses the same curve for pretty much everything.
Whilst I have no issue with this because they are all great pieces for me, I don't particularly believe that there is as much thought put in to it as some might have you believe.

If you have ever had a piece worked on by Mojobari and seen the print out that comes with the mouthpiece reface, you might think differently. I think Keith puts a lot of thought into each piece he works on.

 

[Nefertiti]

I have measured many Mouthpiece facing curves and to be honest haven't found that there is much difference between them.
Particularly when a number of pieces were faced by the same person.
Also interestingly I have noted that many tenor and Baritone pieces had close to identical facings when faced by the same person.
Even when tip openings were quite different.
Facing length differences were more noticeable in pieces with larger chambers and rollover baffles to those with smaller chambers and higher baffles.
But amongst similar type pieces, the differences were minimal.
Eg: I have 5 pieces, 2 Tenor and 3 Baritone.
They all have facings by the same refacer/facer.
Two of them were refaced at my request and the three others were purchased by me already with these facings.
They range in opening from .95 up to .118.
With my 5 points measurements, they are all extremely close to identical.
Therefore it would seem to me that this particular mouthpiece facer/refacer uses the same curve for pretty much everything.
Whilst I have no issue with this because they are all great pieces for me, I don't particularly believe that there is as much thought put in to it as some might have you believe.

On the other hand, I can understand how some guys have found facings that work and use them over and over regardless of other factors. I don't think all refacers do that though...... Even in this thread, meven used a different facing curve on the double ring link for more resistance and so the piece would play as originally intended when it was made.

 

[Sigmund451]

A well presented mpc is more than about the facing. Of course that is important but its also very much about the relationships between many variables in a piece; chamber size, baffle, floor height etc...

Making a piece. Is a bit of a balancing act on a tightrope with no net.

 

[MojoBari]

Just as different players can make the same mouthpiece sound different, different Refacers can have different conclusions looking at the same mouthpiece or data. Using someone else’s measurements adds uncertainty since measurement equipment and techniques vary from person to person.

I have thought many times about how more info can be shared responsibly. It is a daunting task with little reward.

 

[sax.hobby]

Yeah, I'm amazed with all the variables involved and what must be the amount of experimentations involved to offer a really good mpc or to make one work better wrt. some well-defined characteristics. When looking at the different mouthpiece features such as double windows, fluted chamber, rail width, shark gill, scooped sidewall, ring, ceramic, different shapes of baffles, etc., I often wonder: what effect does it make? how much effect? how? etc. Of course, some marketing ingenuity to help make sales is to be expected, but sometimes it's hard to separate between the really effective features vs the non-effective ones. Of course, the final word is on the player who tries/uses the piece. I'm just curious is all.