[derickmont]

I'm learning Take the A Train(alto sax) and I see that the chord in the 3rd bar says B7+. For arpeggiation I would think that I'd just arpeggiate B D# G A.

But on the bottom of the sheet where it just has a little lead sheet, it says B7 +4, so I'm confused.

Also, would I play a whole-tone scale over this type of chord?

 

[hgiles]

Typically whole tone is played over that, but you can get just about anything to work with the right voice leading. The first thing you want to be able to do is play phrases that embellish the F natural in that bar. Then Work on the D#, then the G natural. Those are the non-diatonic notes that will separate you from the herd.

 

[Agent27]

Sometimes, you see charts where that chord is B+7 or B7(#5) (same thing), but more often you see B7#11 instead which is what I consider "correct" chord and is the same as the 2nd chord you wrote.

Ultimately, you have a few options. You can include the #5 or not. So you can use:

Lydian Dominant
B C# D# E#(F) F# G# A

Half-Whole Diminished
B C D D# E#(F) F# G# A

Whole Tone Scale
B C# D# E#(F) G A

Diminished Whole Tone Scale; aka Altered Scale
B C D D# E#(F) G A

Any of these can be played over bars 3 and 4 of "'A' Train". Try each one and see which one you like the best. Work on it for while and when you feel like you've got it under your fingers, try working on another so that you have options whenever you get that section.

 

[Bubba06]

I'm also using this as a learning experience.

Let me know if this makes sense...

B+7 gives you the #5. Then when it says it down at the bottom it wants to make sure you know there's a #11. If you play a dominant scale, raising the 11 and 5, you are left with the whole tone scale?

Leaves you the 1 2 3 #4 #5 b7 8.

-Bubba-

-Bubba-

 

[Nozero]

You could think about it that way, Bubba. You just picked apart the chord alterations and found a scale to match it, which is awesome. I always used the whole tone, but my friend got me to think about it a little differently and create a more sophisticated sound.

Thinking modal, you could say that B7 is the 4th mode of a melodic minor scale. (so F# Melodic minor)

So you get B C# D# E# F# G# A B

The more options you have, the better. Have fun experimenting!

 

[skeller047]

A lot of lead sheets give this chord as D7 b5 (that would be B7 b5 in alto key). This chord is NOT the same as an augmented chord, or the +4 (really #11) listed in your chart.

So the B altered scale or the whole tone scale are the obvious choices here. This chord implies the natural 5th is not present in the chord, so the diminished scale or Lydian dominant are probably not the best choices and really don't do justice to the tonal color Strayhorn was going for.

 

[hgiles]

A lot of lead sheets give this chord as D7 b5 (that would be B7 b5 in alto key). This chord is NOT the same as an augmented chord, or the +4 (really #11) listed in your chart.

So the B altered scale or the whole tone scale are the obvious choices here. This chord implies the natural 5th is not present in the chord, so the diminished scale or Lydian dominant are probably not the best choices and really don't do justice to the tonal color Strayhorn was going for.

Yes! This is almost the same chord as in GIRL FR IPANEMA and EXACTLY LIKE YOU (often having the same nomenclature), but I play different stuff over A TRAIN, preferring either Whole Tone or ALT most of the time.

 

[derickmont]

Thanks for the confirmation and added info guys.

 

[JohnGalt]

I find it amusing to hear students play augmented on that chord because they have a "hey, I'm playing a whole-tone scale now! Weeeee ...." effect. Old school cats would often play lydian b7 at that spot, sounds more authentic.
Keep in mind that because a chord has a "+" in it, doesnt mean whole-tone all the time... it just means that there is no 5th sounded in the chord, but the note that is a raised 5th is. In other words, the flatted 13 is the same note as raised 5th .... G+7(#9) would be common voicing for a dom chord in a minor II-V. This is the shell of a G7 (G, B &F) with Eb and Bb (or Eb upper structure triad) ....

 

[Agent27]

I find it amusing to hear students play augmented on that chord because they have a "hey, I'm playing a whole-tone scale now! Weeeee ...." effect. Old school cats would often play lydian b7 at that spot, sounds more authentic.

I started off using the altered scale because that's what Joe Henderson was mostly using on the So Near, So Far album.

 

[freejazzlessons]

Ilydian b7 at that spot, sounds more authentic.
Keep in mind that because a chord has a "+" in it, doesnt mean whole-tone all the time... it just means that there is no 5th sounded in the chord, but the note that is a raised 5th is. In other words, the flatted 13 is the same note as raised 5th .... G+7(#9) would be common voicing for a dom chord in a minor II-V. This is the shell of a G7 (G, B &F) with Eb and Bb (or Eb upper structure triad) ....

Yes John I agree. Alot of the time in that measure I would probably play a piano voicing with a tritone in the L.H. (3rd and 7th of chord) and a 9, #11, 13 upperstructure in the R.H.

When I'm soloing over it I'm usually thinking lydian dominant as well. It's just one way of going about it though.

 

[Bubba06]

So we shouldn't include a 5 at all? Instead a b6? o.o

-Bubba-

 

[piwikiwi]

So we shouldn't include a 5 at all? Instead a b6? o.o

-Bubba-

A b6 isn't the same as a sharp 5. A sharp 5 replaces the normal 5 but will still have a normal 6

 

[hgiles]

Lydian dominant sounds fine on IPANEMA and EXACTLY LIKE YOU, but sounds out of character on A TRAIN.

Lydian dominant has a #4, a perfect fifth, and a major sixth. All the greats that I've ever heard, play that note in between p5 and M6 (whole step above the melody note), so theyre definitely not thinking Lydian dominant, but either altered or whole tone. They often play the same interval over the turnaround also.

Lydian dominant wouldn't be my first choice over that in this tune.

 

[Meatballfoot]

Lydian dominant sounds fine on IPANEMA and EXACTLY LIKE YOU, but sounds out of character on A TRAIN.

I have heard people of great degrees of old-school-ness play whole tone as well as lydian dominant over this chord. The key is the moving note (concert G G# A). I was told by an old school fellow that the swing guys were all playing whole tone over that chord, so the boppers freshened it up by playing lydian dominant type stuff when they played the tune. Either works, but I still say it's all about the moving note.

 

[freejazzlessons]

Lydian dominant sounds fine on IPANEMA and EXACTLY LIKE YOU, but sounds out of character on A TRAIN.

Lydian dominant has a #4, a perfect fifth, and a major sixth. All the greats that I've ever heard, play that note in between p5 and M6 (whole step above the melody note), so theyre definitely not thinking Lydian dominant, but either altered or whole tone. They often play the same interval over the turnaround also.

Lydian dominant wouldn't be my first choice over that in this tune.

Hi hgiles,
I hear what you're saying. I think it really comes down to an issues of taste and potentially analysis at the end of the day though.

I learned how to play on this tune by listening to Clifford Brown and Harold Land blow on it off Study in Brown. Clifford definitely plays lydian dominant in spots on the tune. In all fairness though Richie Powell (the piano player) plays certain piano voicings that do sound augmented or whole tone like.

But like I said.....it comes down to taste and preference. It's all music