[Grumps]

I know some really good players that can't listen. They step on vocals. They play distracting "background" while others solo. They're so self-absorbed in what they do, they miss cues and nuances that can flavor a tune. Heck, I was one of these guys back when I was young and getting started. Thankfully though, I got to grow up with strong armed pros who awakened me to my foibles. But it's probably what bothers me most when playing with others, and even listening to others play with their own groups. They just don't listen. And you can be hard on them about it, stopping it when mentoring. But once they reach a certain age... these bad habits seem to become engrained. And they'll never get it. They're so confident in their skills, that whatever they play they believe to be adding to the experience.

Saxophone players have a terrible reputation for this sort of thing. I may have said this before on another topic some time ago. But I recall being told by a guy I worked with for years who admitted whenever they did a gig and heard a saxophonist would be joining them, he knew they'd be in for a long night. And I've seen saxophonists absolutely wreck bands before; though of course this curse is not solely theirs to bear.

So have you become a better listener? Do you hear what others do behind you? Do you answer them or play over them? How soon do you jump on the space that builds a piece? Are you always playing?

 

[Jazzoetry]

Think about it, after all the hours sax players (and other wind instruments) puts into learning the instrument they spend time just waiting to play in some musical situations. The Piano, Guitar, Bass, Percussion and Drums get to play continuously in most cases. Some players get impatient and unprofessional at times. That's why some players over do it when they finally get to play. I like to listen and absorb everything I hear and then contribute some good musical ideas that others can appreciate. I usually play with players I like to listen to, since as a sax player I will be spending time listening and waiting to play when I'm not leading.

 

[A Greene]

Definitely better as I've gotten older. Some singers really hate the doodles other encourage doodles - with a singer, I become a supporting member of the ensemble. At an open mic a couple years ago, I was trying a 'comping' horn thing - I guess that wasn't welcomed. I have a volume pedal with my mic set-up, now I turn down, play a few long notes to be sure I know what's going on harmonically, and then wait for the sax solo.

The larger issue for me is either the band doesn't listen at all to the saxophone so I'm just playing with REALLY loud backing tracks or the drummer hi-jacks the solo morphing it into some sort of ultra fast double time thing or suddenly I'm in a latin number. Unfortunately, never had any older pros around where I grew up so it was trial and error. Mostly error. .

 

[Fader]

I can identify. Doing music production for years before getting serious about the saxophone really helped. It's such a hot topic with me that when I communicate with a new band leader about possibly picking up some gigs (I do hired gun work fairly regularly), one of the first things I tell them is, "I know when not to play, and I promise not to step on your vocalist." I make every attempt to deliver as well. I know I have succeeded when I'm not only asked back, but told I'm not playing enough. I find myself explaining that a solo saxophone can't always be treated like a rhythm element the same as you would a horn section, and can actually be a distraction. Not playing can be a really effective tool. Besides - You always want to leave them wanting more. It's not like we're getting paid by the note.

Something that really stuck with me: I was at a blues show watching a warm up band while waiting to go on. The sax player was playing over everything so the FOH guy had turned him down. The musician I was standing next to (Whom I really respected) shook his head and said, "Man - That guy really likes to hear himself play." From that point on I redoubled my efforts to make sure I was not just playing to play, and actually contributing to the song or staying out of the way.

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

It's not only what you play that makes you a good musician, it's what you don't play.

 

[1saxman]

I hate these guys too. I've had run-ins with several of them over the years. I'm proud to say that many other musicians have said about me over the years that I have very 'big ears'! Not just because I'm good at 'listening' to what's happening and responding, but also because I learned in the very beginning not to step on others, regardless of how much a part just 'has to be there.' I was with a group in the '80s that I really enjoyed - R&B, and all tunes were either originals or original arrangements. I'm up there on a gig with them in a bar, things are happening, big crowd 'buzz' and all that, when this guy walks in (known to the leader and the others), gets out a tenor, gets on the bandstand and starts blowing. Being a pro, I tried to get him to play some background lines with me but there was no communication possible. Got through the gig and it happened again next time. I asked the leader if this is what he wanted - he said yes - I said 'Later'. These guys never turn out to be worth a damn. I guess the only way they can work is to kiss the leader's butt and 'horn-in'. Especially in 'jam' situations they are obnoxious because not only do they suck to start with, they never quit making noise - they play through the vocal and any solos by others as if nobody else was there. Frequently they'll have 'fans' who egg them on, like its some kind of competition - but they're all tone deaf anyway, including the sax owner, so I guess they all flock together.
Thanks for bringing this up - I did not know it was so widespread. Yes, they definitely make it hard for a good sax player by 'poisoning the well' with their crummy playing and horrible manners.

 

[Budget Explosion]

On a related note: As a young horn player, I would quit bands that didn't let me play sax on every song. In the late 90's, I managed a great band where even the main members might sit out a tune - they called it "professionally chilling." It really was really eye-opening. It showed me the path to maturity - the audience won't think less of me because I'm not on every tune. I'm so glad I learned that lesson.

 

[Bubba06]

I remember my teacher saying, "****, at least wait till the Bridge."

I follow that pretty religiously now. Thinking about it, it makes musical sense-- wait for the "different" part.

-Bubba-

 

[adamk]

Think about it, after all the hours sax players (and other wind instruments) puts into learning the instrument they spend time just waiting to play in some musical situations. The Piano, Guitar, Bass, Percussion and Drums get to play continuously in most cases. Some players get impatient and unprofessional at times. That's why some players over do it when they finally get to play. I like to listen and absorb everything I hear and then contribute some good musical ideas that others can appreciate. I usually play with players I like to listen to, since as a sax player I will be spending time listening and waiting to play when I'm not leading.

That's why I play key, percussion ans sax/flute

 

[saxoclese]

My teacher in college stressed "musicianship"---a term I don't hear used much anymore. It has to do with being sensitive to balance, blend, and intonation when playing in an ensemble along with knowing which part(s) are more important and which parts need to be in the background. It also has to do with musical interpretation beyond playing the notes and rhythms. This includes phrasing, style and the countless nuances that make the music expressive that aren't written in the part.

 

[Grumps]

... or the drummer hi-jacks the solo morphing it into some sort of ultra fast double time thing or suddenly I'm in a latin number.

Remember it's a conversation. I actually dig it when a drummer reacts and responds when I'm soloing; which is different from hi-jacking. Perhaps they're even helping you to get somewhere you ought to be. It can also lead to interesting trades, and a drummer will love you for it when you play off their beat. I know we commonly diss on drummers here, but never count them out of the conversation. It's their band too.

 

[Grumps]

double post

 

[swperry1]

Yeah. We’ve all done it before, but it’s like maturity...sometimes it just doesn’t happen for people. It’s amazing how many cats with tons of technique and a bottomless bag of licks can’t listen. I get it, it’s hard to listen when you’re just trying to land some lick you’re dying to fit in somewhere instead of laying back and waiting until you have something of substance to add.

 

[Sacks Of Phones]

How about the guys who aren't playing in a particular song that think they need to play tambourine or cowbell or claves into their mic..............maddening.

 

[Repentatonic]

Very interesting thread, good to hear your opinions, I often think I may be doing too much, I always ask the vocalist/band members depending on the situation, what they want, in my experience most want as much as I can fit in, then again it’s normally in noisy bars and weddings

 

[24251]

My teacher in college stressed "musicianship"---a term I don't hear used much anymore. It has to do with being sensitive to balance, blend, and intonation when playing in an ensemble along with knowing which part(s) are more important and which parts need to be in the background. It also has to do with musical interpretation beyond playing the notes and rhythms. This includes phrasing, style and the countless nuances that make the music expressive that aren't written in the part.

Yes, all of this, for sure.

I play a lot with a small combo (piano, bass, drums, me) backing up a singer. Our approach as a group is to make her look good. Period. Playing over/stepping on her vocals is definitely not part of that strategy! If she misses the form, comes in early or late after a solo, forgets about the intro, whatever - the band just adjusts like nothing ever happened...

 

[saxoclese]

Yes, all of this, for sure.

I play a lot with a small combo (piano, bass, drums, me) backing up a singer. Our approach as a group is to make her look good. Period. Playing over/stepping on her vocals is definitely not part of that strategy! If she misses the form, comes in early or late after a solo, forgets about the intro, whatever - the band just adjusts like nothing ever happened...

This reminds me of the old joke: How do you know if there is a singer at your door? Answer: She can't find the key, and doesn't know when to come in.

 

[JL]

I always listen and try to add something that 'fits' without overplaying or getting in anyone's way and certainly not playing over a vocalist. There's a real art to playing backing lines or fills. It has to be done right, with taste, and not overdone. Some tunes have standard 'signature' lines that are good to know. When improvising lines, you definitely have to listen and do something that adds value, without clashing in any way. And if you're playing with another horn player or in a section, you really have to listen to each other and play totally in sync; otherwise don't bother.

Overall: When in doubt, lay out.

By the way, it's not just horn players that sometimes overplay; harmonica players often do this, and even keyboard players can play too much. Comping is a real skill to learn for keyboard players (but that's a separate topic).

 

[mi000ke]

Overall: When in doubt, lay out.

Man, that's the ground truth. The other for me is, always play to make the whole band (not yourself) sound better.

I'm kind of obsessed with not overplaying and fitting in. I play in a few bands - jam band, jazz instrumental, jazz with vocalist - and I record every gig and listen to see if I'm fitting in, not stepping on anyone, and not overplaying. It's helped me to really improve my lines and fills (and solos) and to play stuff that complements the others. It's not always perfect, but it's definitely always getting better. Wish all of my bandmates did this as well. Some are better than others.

Occasionally we'll have a guest horn sit in for a few tunes, and they usually become "that guy." I spend winters in a resort area, and sit in with a lot of the bands. I try to be obsessively careful about not overplaying or overstaying my welcome, and never trying to show up any other players (in those rare instances where I may be the better player, and especially in most cases where I am not). Just seems to me to be proper etiquette.