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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Greeting's to all

I have removed my thoughts concerning the topic that I had posted, because of the many opinions that were posted in regard to the question I brought up, where one member said, that I was the only one believing what I had written. I was only trying to say what I thought as an opinion. Then other members other joined in with their opinions, and as always a few went off topic, and or insisted that their opinion had to be accepted as the truth, according to them. So, I deleted the post that was once here, and I will refrain from bringing up any more topics for discussion. But, I do thank a number of forum members that did understand and replied with some very interesting opinions. I hope that others read those opinions and learned from them...

Phil Mas'
aka FrenchMKVI
 

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A relacquer is a relacquer, regardless of where it was done.

The concern, among those who care, is one of removing the old lacquer, and what potential harm was incurred in the process.

Your horn may indeed be a great player, but if lacquer was removed and new lacquer was applied, it is a relacquer.
 

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I can't imagine the Selmer Factory in France taking the time to re-lacquer old horns. Doesn't really seem like a money maker. Honestly, did this really happen?
 

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I have a great sounding re-lacquered SBA. I was told that it was "factory re-lacquered" before buying. Quoting my local tech who is considered an expert - "A factory re-lacquered means that somebody who re-lacquered horns for the company did the re-lacquering job". Not that it was actually done at the factory. So there goes that myth.

At any rate, I didn't care at all about being re-lacquered. The sax blew and sounded great and the price was more than reasonable and within my means so I bought it. At the end, I think this is what matters.
 

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I have a great sounding re-lacquered SBA. I was told that it was "factory re-lacquered" before buying. Quoting my local tech who is considered an expert - "A factory re-lacquered means that somebody who re-lacquered horns for the company did the re-lacquering job". Not that it was actually done at the factory. So there goes that myth.

At any rate, I didn't care at all about being re-lacquered. The sax blew and sounded great and the price was more than reasonable and within my means so I bought it. At the end, I think this is what matters.
... unless a horn is being sold at "collectible" prices as an "original lacquer" horn.
 

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I agree that a relacquer is a relacquer. I think some sellers throw the word "factory" behind "relacquer" to take some of the sting out of admitting that the horn has been relacquered (i.e., a "factory relacquer" is somehow less undesirable than a non-factory relacquer).

That said, I can attest that factories did indeed do relacquering of old horns. My sax mentor (RIP) had his BA alto relacquered at the Selmer factory in Elkhart sometime in the 70's (before Ken Doty left). I now own that horn and it's a great player, but I can't say that the "factory" job looks any better than any "non-factory" relacquer job I've seen. I also recently sold a beautiful Buffet SDA alto that had a factory-original service card reading something like: "NOTE: Your horn's beautiful gold lacquer finish is not a permanent finish. Buffet offers a factory re-lacquering service," or some such.
 

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Well, if the horn was sent to the "factory" (more about that later) for an overhaul, it just means that they had set up a rebuild shop at the same address. How many of the operations were shared with the production operation is unknown. Certainly we can expect that the people who stripped down, cleaned, reassembled the rebuilds were different people than the main production line assemblers. I would guess that stripping the old finish was done in a separate place, though it might have been the same room as rework of defective mass production finishes. It can be imagined that the actual buffing and lacquer application for rebuilds might well have been done in the same paint booth as the production horns, since that is a pretty big set of equipment and you might well not want to have two of them in the same building.

Still, the same operations were done for "factory refinishing" as "non-factory refinishing" so the most optimistic view would be that the "factory refinish" is as good as the best non-factory job. It's also possible to imagine scenarios where the pressure to get out production or other factors might actually cause the factory job to be worse than a lot of non-factory jobs. All these years later, you just have to look at the individual instrument and make your best guess as to how well it was done.

One other note, though: if you have a Selmer Paris instrument and it was sent to Elkhart for a "factory refinish" then it was being most likely sent to a different factory than where it was made (though I know some operations were done in Elkhart on CKD horns that were shipped incomplete from France). So that may well be equivalent to sending your Ford engine to "Engine Rebuilders Inc.", yes, it's a factory rebuild, but it's a different factory!
 

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I see, OP, that you've written that "it is believed" that this horn was essentially refinished as a warranty return. I would say that IF you have documentation proving that, then it might be a little less impact on market value; but if not, then it's just a statement. I can remember many statements that have been made about my saxophones over the years that later, with additional knowledge, I know were simply not true. Just one example:

"This Martin tenor [actually a Dolnet stenciled "Martin Paris" for the Robert Martin Co.] is a REAL Martin, not one of the ones made after Wurlitzer bought the company."

Now, with the advantage of the Internet, I realize that statement was wrong in multiple ways. But if it had been a bit more plausible, I could well have ended up repeating it.
 

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I can't imagine the Selmer Factory in France taking the time to re-lacquer old horns. Doesn't really seem like a money maker. Honestly, did this really happen?
They weren't sent back to Paris, at least the American horns. They were sent back to the Selmer factory in Elkhart where they were stripped, buffed and re-lacquered.

Sometimes it was the guys that used to do the work at the plant but were retired that did this work.

Yes, they did this frequently and it was an option that you could contact them about.

So Factory re-lacquer is a real thing:). Impossible to tell unless you know the history of the horn though. The factory jobs that I've seen and know 100% were sent back to Elkhart were done very well.

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So Factory re-lacquer is a real thing:). Impossible to tell unless you know the history of the horn though. The factory jobs that I've seen and know 100% were sent back to Elkhart were done very well.
How does the valuation work? Do you distinguish between "relacquer" and "factory relacquer" as compared to "original lacquer"?

Ie., is "factory relacquer" a) as valuable as "original lacquer", b) more valuable than "relacquer, or c) equal in value to "relacquer"?
 

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Agree that a re-lacquer is a re-lacquer. PROOF of a "factory" job might carry some extra credibility in a sale where the buyer can't inspect the instrument in hand. But anyone refinishing a horn whether or not they are in the original factory, a 'factory authorized' facility, or 'just some guy' can do a great job or a poor job. To me the point of contention is how the buffing/polishing was done (or over done) and it's effect on the engraving. A really well done 1st re-lacquer should still have fairly sharp engraving under the finish. We've all seen horns where the engraving has almost disappeared; whether from an overly aggressive 1st refinish or 3rd refinish, the damage is done regardless of where it was done.
 

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How does the valuation work? Do you distinguish between "relacquer" and "factory relacquer" as compared to "original lacquer"?

Ie., is "factory relacquer" a) as valuable as "original lacquer", b) more valuable than "relacquer, or c) equal in value to "relacquer"?
Factory or not, the proof is in how it looks. Color of the lacquer / time period of when it was done, how faded the engraving is, and how well the actual lacquer was applied all play a vital roll in the value.

We can and have sold incredible looking re-lacquers for $1000 - $2000 more than ugly/poorly done ones.

At the end of the day though, it is still a re-lacquer and it is worth less than an original. Depends in the make model and serial as to how much less.

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Factory or not, the proof is in how it looks. Color of the lacquer / time period of when it was done, how faded the engraving is, and how well the actual lacquer was applied all play a vital roll in the value.

We can and have sold incredible looking re-lacquers for $1000 - $2000 more than ugly/poorly done ones.

At the end of the day though, it is still a re-lacquer and it is worth less than an original. Depends in the make model and serial as to how much less.
Thank you, Simon. That sums it up very well. I have played some great relacquered horns and would not hesitate to pay a fair price for one in good mechanical condition.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Your missing the point here... The discussion concerns horns that were re-lacquered when bought new at the time and then sent back to the factory to have imperfections removed...

Philo



I can't imagine the Selmer Factory in France taking the time to re-lacquer old horns. Doesn't really seem like a money maker. Honestly, did this really happen?
 

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Your missing the point here... The discussion concerns horns that were re-lacquered when bought new at the time and then sent back to the factory to have imperfections removed...

Philo
That seems a stretch. The horn would have been inspected in process before and after assembly and final setup.

Regardless, relacquer requires lacquer removal and application, so your original question is answered. A relac is a relac is a relac.
 

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I must stress that I believe, as I was told that a factory re-lacquered horns are considered original as long as they were not re-lacquered there after, and a horn that has been re-lacquered years later doesn't come back with deep honey gold original lacquer,are lacquered by the typical lacquer that is used in the US. One must consider that there's more concern on how well the horn plays, because SBA are hand made horns, and not all SBA's play well and will need work or serviced to return the horn to the correct specifications to play well, and some don't ever become good playing horns..
Unfortunately this is not true. A relac is relac. By definition of the action and in classification.

If it's been stripped and another coat of lacquer applied. Or even just another coat of lacquer applied, then it is a re-lacquered horn. No one in the sax business would sell a factory re-lacquer as original unless they are ignorant or sleazy.

As per a good player, unfortunately how a horn plays adds nothing to the value as these values are all based off collectors prices in reality.

You can have a museum quality SBA tenor never played once and get $20k for it and it doesn't even play or could be a dog! Doesn't matter. It's the rarity of condition that commands the price.

Take a run of the mill beat up re-lacquered yet freshly overhauled SBA tenor that is a magical player. The best ever player and you still will only get $7k-$8k for it.

The market is not based on how well these play. It's only based on condition.


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Discussion Starter #18
Seems like some of you are just narrowing your points to specific issues and are not addressing the many other attributes that make a horn play great, because even brand new horns need some kind of tweeting to bring them to play to their optimum level. First, I wrote in my original post that there are many original lacquered horns that sound and play in an inferior manner, even though they look great, but fall way short when it comes to performance, they were just badly made from the get go, and may never play properly or cost a lot of money to return them to optimum playing condition. Yet players will pay the premium sellers price for a down right bad playing horn. I find that original lacquered or re-lacquered that play great are hard to come by because those who own them, hold on to them and not sell them and if they do, ask for a lot of money according to their market value. A good players horn are worth whatever a buyer can get for them. How many times you've said to yourself, I should have never sold that horn, and sold them for less than they were worth?

Furthermore, as I also stated, we run into the issues that not being in the state or city is being sold, the horn needs to be shipped which raises more problems, because since the buyer can't play test the horn, one doesn't know in what true condition the horn is in until, one, he's a seasoned enough player and knows what to look for as he plays the horn, or looks visually at the different components of the horn, two, the horn is taken to a very good reliable repairman that can assess what is not correct on the horn according to the specs of the horn. Three, the fact that most of the time, sellers don't except returns is another problem. My point, regardless if a horn is an original lacquer or a re-lacquer, what is the true condition of the horn is most important, what are the aspects and attributes of a horn whose tone holes are leveled, body and bell are not misaligned, no loose rods, pivot screws are sitting perfectly, key cups, posts, and the many other parts and mechanisms are also set to specs, which will enable the horn to play to its optimum state when a player performs with the horn.

Philo



Thank you, Simon. That sums it up very well. I have played some great re-lacquered horns and would not hesitate to pay a fair price for one in good mechanical condition.
 

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Seems like some of you are just narrowing your points to specific issues...
Yes, those issues regarding pricing a vintage Selmer, original lacquer vs relacquer.

And you are trying to convince us that a great playing horn is worth more than the market will bear. Oh yeah, and you are selling a horn that you originally posted as original lacquer, and others have apparently contested that evaluation.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?343252-F-S-Selmer-SBA-Alto-51XXX


Opening post:
There are no repairs and its original lacquer is intact at about 93-95% in a deep honey gold lacquer.
When I sale a saxophone, like most others, it will sale at the same selling price I had bought the horn, or at the present market value according to condition, vintage, or its popularity. I will also pay half of the shipping costs. This SBA is sold as a no return. Note, all the horns I’ve sold here on our forum, the buyer’s never asked if they can return the horn.

And a month after it sold:
The 51XXX SBA Alto is once again available... Factory Re-Lacquered Deep Honey Gold Lacquer...

I agree with you that a great playing horn is a great value. But as the market shows, original lacquer horns sell for more. Period. I'm guessing you know that, else you might not have made such a precise claim to the condition of the lacquer.
 

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I guess the answer you don’t want to hear is that a poor playing original lacquer SBA is worth a lot more than your great playing re-lacquered SBA.
We don’t make the rules of value and collectibility. I don’t have a problem with gently re-lacquered Selmers. I have a great playing gently re-lacquered Balanced Action tenor I basically payed around $2200 for by selling a great playing beat up re-lacquered Mark VI I’d bought and sold for too much.
 
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