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Antigua ProOne vs Eastern Music ref 45

7K views 63 replies 17 participants last post by  Dr G 
#1 ·
Lets Start with the pictures first. The dark one is the Antigua ProOne.
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I did kind of a small research project on the ProOne and then a day by day as I was playing it, and wrote it up here: https://www.vesware.com/Saxophone/AntigueProOne6200.html
So, if you're considering this horn, there's at least some good links compiled there. I'll put most of the pertinent stuff below.

But anyway, the Eastern is my current horn, and I'm just seeing how others compare. The most recent challenger was a B&S 2001 Series, the one before that was a Selmer TS600, a 70's Cleveland prior to that. I keep the better one and return or sell the one that I don't like. The ProOne is the latest challanger.

The things that attracted me to trying it were a lot of interesting features, as follows, from Peter Ponzol:
1. Uses a custom brass which contains a higher amount of copper to match what use to be done with the French saxophones in the 50's. Which should give a warmer sound with more projection. (Eastern Music is a Rose Brass, high copper, and I do like the response of that instrument).
2. It's cryogenically treated. Apparently that's a way to destress the metal and improve the tone.
3. Reviewers say that it's substantial, heavy, and that gives it a darker tone. Feeling solid is a good thing.
4. It's a new neck design to give good tuning, and it actually raises the mouthpiece higher. That's good for me because I'm tall, but Peter also says that gets you to tilt your head up and open up your wind pipe. Combined with having two attachment rings, maybe my support harness won't need to be up so high.
5. There is a G# lifter mechanism. Every saxophone I've had the G# can stick because it's spring lift. This is a mechanical lift. Keilworth sax's, which Peter worked on also, have the same feature.
6. The five tone holes on the bell are all ringed, similar to rolling the tone holes. But this is the only instrument that has a mixture of drawn holes on top, and the ringed holes on bottom. Peter says that provides a more uniform sound across the full range and makes the lower notes easier to play. It also provides a consistent resistance from top to bottom.
7. Some of the bell tone keys also use trident arms, patented, with adjusters on them to stabilize the large keys and allow adjusting to close any leaks and stop flutter. This is one step beyond the double arms that you sometimes see on other saxophones.

It did come with a mouthpiece (looks just like a Yamaha 5C), one reed, neck strap, cork grease, cloth wipe and a swab (silk?).
Full rib construction.
Neck to body perfect fit.
Craftsmanship looks good.
Low D pad stuck pretty bad (hmmmm...)
1. The pearls on the keys are more dished compared to my 54. My fingers like it.
2. The springs are stiffer and feel very uniform across all keys. When first playing it I caught myself not pressing enough a few times.
3. The pinkie keys on both hands are well placed. Rollers work nice. On the right hand the keys are actually raised higher off the saxophone, than my 54, about an inch. I like where they fall. I don't need to reach as much. I do have big hands, so this will be nice for people with smaller hands. The left hand table keys are a bit closer, so less reach for those also.
4. Immediately feels comfortable.
5. The key travel distance is pretty short across the board. Everything feels tight and solid; well put together.

Played it for a couple hours initially. No complaints. On middle D with all keys pressed sometimes I get an octave higher. With the slightly shorter key travels and stiffer springs I just needed to work on the timing of getting all the keys pressed. I had this problem before on my 54 when making fast transitions from middle B to middle D. It was a finger timing issue. If the timing is off you end up blipping the octave key open.

After 12 days of playing it:
The sticking low D did not going away. Once I un-stick it at the start of a play session it still sticks a bit, more with time, not enough to be annoying, and not like when it's sitting overnight. That's kind of ironic that it has the no stick linkage for the G# and the D# sticks consistently. That's even after I cleaned it multiple times.
Compared to the 54:
  • One of the fingers for Bb is more of a dud on the ProOne. The all fingers down middle D is also more of a dud on the ProOne.
  • The lighter spring force on the 54 definitely allows me to move faster.
  • The difference in placement of the table keys is noticeable, but I actually like the placement of the left hand table keys being a bit further away on the 54. On the ProOne sometimes it did feel cramped.
  • The sound is very comparable, with the ProOne being maybe a bit darker, but not by much.
  • The low Bb may be a smidge easier to initiate on the ProOne. Overtones are compareable.
  • The ProOne is slightly heavier. But without an accurate scale that's just a feel. Sometimes that's because of balance.
  • Intonation is good on both. I don't feel that I need to make any adjustments playing back and forth between one and the other.
  • The 54 is more free blowing.

So, I'm returning the ProOne and the Eastern Music survives another challenger. Obviously the sticking pad is a problem that shouldn't be there on a new horn, that's the main reason I'm returning it. At first I thought I liked the firmer springs, but they got old. I prefer the lighter feel of the 54. The 54 cost me $800, the ProOne $2000 including tax (that's a good deal). But all the whizbang features of the ProOne didn't really seem to translate to anything significantly better in playability or sound quality. That's not so much a dig at the ProOne as it is a positive commentary on the 54. Basically both good horns, with minor differences. Will the ProOne have better longevity? That I don't know.

The seller apologized for not catching the pad issue and offered a replacement, but with no advantages, and some clear disadvantage, and higher cost, I passed.

I think this will end my horn investigation. I had high expectations for the ProOne, thought it would be a keeper. I think at this point to get something "better", I'm looking at the big bucks, which I'm not willing to spend. $2000 was my limit. The thought has crossed my mind, well how good a used Yani, Yami or Selmer can you get for $2000. But not going down that road. Had enough headaches with used instruments. There was a previous Selmer T44 which was suppose to be in great shape, for $1700, NOT.

Hope you find this useful. Your mileage may vary.
 
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#2 ·
Thanks for sharing that, Ves.

FWIW, sticking pads and stiff springs are common on new horns, regardless of price, and easily fixed. Things such as tone character, response, ergonomics, and intonation are not so easily fixed. I look for the long term potential of a horn and dial in the adjustments in the first few months of getting to know a horn.

It‘s a good feeling to know that you’ve tried more than a few horns and are happy with what you’ve got. Enjoy your horn.
 
#3 ·
Yeah, I've had some sticky pads before, but not like this. I'd hit the key with enough force that would normally overcome the spring force plus some, which was pretty high, and it wasn't enough. My pinkie would just stop dead, I'd miss the note, and have to push harder. Not sure what the problem was. From what I could see the seat was off center, the pressure wasn't even around the pad, and it was sunk in more on one side. So, I think the pad was acting like a cork on one side, and I'm literally pulling it out; hard to describe. And that was one of the tone holes with a ring on it. Takes a lot of pressure to sink in the pad that deep over a relatively large surface area. It was just wrong, and appears to be that the pad is not parallel to the surface of the tone hole, aggravated by the high spring force. But if the spring force hadn't been that high, it probably would not have sealed all the way around.

So, you'd buy a pro level horn, and then fix it? Not me. I have a problem with having to fix brand new things. Especially expensive new things. Especially for no significant gain. The higher the price the less tolerant I am of defects. If it turned out to be so much better then maybe I would have gone for the exchange offer. But it's not; response, ergonomics, and intonation.

But yes, if you wanted to fix that pad and change out the springs, then it would just be that one of the Bb fingerings and the low D are stuffy. Otherwise, the ProOne is a nice instrument.

If anyone wants to buy one, they still have some on Ebay. That authorized dealer is having a year end closeout. But looks like the price went up. One is $2500 another for $3000. Ouch! Maybe they'll sell my return for less, after they fix it. Why the price difference? The $3000 one says it's Cryogenically treated, the $2500 doesn't say it is, but they are both the CA model, which on Antigua's site says is treated. So, don't know what that's about. But at that price, get you an Eastern Music for $800 and fix whatever is wrong with IT, if anything, and you'll be way ahead of the game.
 
#5 ·
The sticky pads issue is still a mystery to me. For my two tenors (Yany and Antigua), the pads on Yany are sticky so that I have to use the Yamaha Powder paper once for a whole to avoid sticky G#, while my Antigua Tenor pads are not sticky at all. For my two soprano (still Yany and Antigua), it is just on the reverse order, as Yany is not sticky at all and Antigua is sticky. Interesting....
 
#6 ·
Unless you’re buying from a shop or brand that does a thorough in-house or contracted set-up, which are few, the new horn set-up can really be quite a crapshoot. There’s all kinds of threads in the repair section about the lack of quality set-up work at every price point for both retail and direct-purchase brands. You mention nothing in your critique of the Antigua that isn’t common and taken care of in short order by a tech. Spring tension: The Antigua might be stiffer than necessary, your EM might also be on the lighter side…maybe you unknowingly discovered you prefer a lighter feel (I do!), and that’s something most any tech can customize easily for you.

Has your EM tenor been in for a good set-up? If not and you already really like it, I bet it comes back even better. When it’s time for a servicing I recommend splurging a little extra if you can to have it set up really well instead of just PC’d and leak light compliant.
 
#8 · (Edited)
This is an interesting thread because...per their reputations...the Eastern vs. the ProOne should be like comparing apples and oranges....

Eastern, unless I am very wrong, has yet to produce a really good, pro-calibre sax. They do not seem to be a company which utilizes a factory which has that goal, necessarily. (Again, this just from what I have read...granted I do not pay much attention to budget-priced chinese horns, so maybe they are producing one). Some have been better than others, of the reviews I have read. But no reviews particularly had the expectation of them being pro horns. More "what you get for the money" sorta echelon.

While the One HAS gotten some good feedback over the years, and while it is nowhere near achieveing the rep of a Yama, Yani, Selmer, etc., (and the cryogenic thing, fer godssake) again I have seen a fair amount kind words on that model from seemingly serious players.

But again, reputation online, particularly of models which relatively speaking are not in widespread use...is often quite specious

I agree with most respondents...sticking pads and spring tensions being the reason for a full return and refund ?

Mmmmmmmmm.....mmmmmmm.......(?) Two things so easily correctible by a tech for less than $100 for sure...or even by a DIY'er with some experience. Woodwinds are not guitars, brass, percussion...whenever you got pads and springs and corks and felts which either make or break the instrument's performance....a tech set-up and some tweaking on a brand new horn is nothing outlandish to expect at all.

You see, when I read these reviews...here is what usually jumps out (and it does here as well): there's no real assessment of the quality/precision of the build nor the response of the horn beyond ergos.

Is there key play ? Are the keys 'soft' ? How do the screws act in their post holes ? Is the body metal light or substantial ? Are the toneholes level ?

Then the next thing becomes blowing response. How well does each horn react to subtle changes in blowing ? Is the tonality of the horn consistent up and down the registers ? (Many horns, for example, have a wonderful quality on the lower octave, but some of that beauty vanishes on the upper octaves).

Lastly what about tonality ? Brightness/darkness/harmonic spread/foucus, things like that ?

Things like this. So, basically, the review becomes simply based on playtesting, with no attention paid to how the horn was really fabricated; and in some cases no assessment of how the horn responds intonationally and blowing wise.

Anyways, no particulary trying to 'say' anything other than the comparison as presented, is using a fairly limited scope of testing to come to a result which covers most of the bases.

Not criticizing OP, if you are happy with the Eastern, great, enjoy it.
 
#9 ·
Initially I thought OP refers to "Eastman" vs "Antigua Pro-One", until I read your reply and notice that it is actually the "Eastern Music". I took a look on their website and found this:
Alto Saxophone ala Yanagisawa A-991 – Eastern Music (emmusicstore.com)

So they basically sell a fake Yany A-991, but meanwhile try to waive any legal responsibility by adding "ala" in front of the Yany. I guess OP's "Ref 45" is also a wording game to make it sound like "Ref 54"......

The horn may play well itself, but based on this behavior I really doubt the credit of this company.
 
#11 ·
I’m sorry not sorry but the OP lost me when he states that the B&S didn’t “make it” compared to a completely generic horn made with slave labor wages. I know for a fact, his comparison will not hold up because I’ve own several EM horns and at least 8 B&S and to say the EM is a better horn is absolutely ridiculous puffery. Maybe he finds the horn is a good fit but those EM horns have no core and are not well built at all when compared to a well thought out design that produces better intonation, better build and frankly better resale value. I say “better”resell but that’s an understatement.
 
#18 ·
Mental note... Brian can get sax's at discount prices...

Well, now it's pooped on so I'll have to go cry in my soup.

Seriously, I'm not oblivious to the fact that the B&S and the ProOne general construction is more refined. The ProOne in particular has some serious credentials, which is why I tried it in the first place. And I get that you guys are like the braintrust of the saxophone world and I'm just a home hobby guy, play 10-20 hours per week. So, my opinion is nowhere near as refined, and I'm not suggesting you run out and sell your Selmers and Yanis and $20,000 saxophones. That's the two horns I had, I did the research, I told you how it came out.

Funny thing, last night, the seller suggested that I accept a replacement and they will even set up the springs for me on the new one, at no charge. Apparently they do have a full service shop there. Hmmm... Well, them doing it, and taking responsibility for the work, is a lot better than me taking it to some shop, paying for the repairs, and screwing up the warranty. But I asked him, how would we come to an understanding of where to put the spring forces? My guess is lower by about 40%. But if the ProOne is as well thought out as we would like to believe, then maybe, the higher spring forces are there because they are necessary. Those keys with the trident arms especially may have some mass. If the spring force is too low, maybe the action will be too slow. On the other hand, for the always closed holes, will they still seal properly? Just because they can do it, is it a good idea to do it? He couldn't answer that question and said he check with his senior tech.
 
#19 ·
I know that many online stores will include a complete new horn setup when the buyer purchases new horn from them. But based on my shallow experiences (of four times ordering online), their so-called new horn setup are at best simple visual inspection and minimal adjustment. Some of the issues are apparently not due to transportation, but they can be easily fixed by local tech though. I don't think they may even bother to run a leak light or put mouthpiece on the horn to test play it.

Still, you should give a Pro one another chance, especially considering that you are comparing it with Eastern tenor....
 
#23 ·
I'd like to thank OP for sharing his experience. Most of us don't do it and he took his time to present it very well. I haven't tried any tenor from EM, but I like their curvy soprano (bell toneholes to the left, like P Mauriat PMSS 2400 GL, based on the older Yanis) ... the setup right out of the box was unbelievable... IMHO, I agree that today a cheap horn can be a good horn, they are improving and EM is doing a decent job, everyone here at SOTW praises their mouthpieces (the MBII and Fatboy Guardala-like), and the necks as well!

In this thread, I've uploaded a video and below there are some opinions and my replies. So I don't repeat myself here.



Then there is the issue with the reviews. I've been reading very detailed reviews here, for over 20+ years browsing this source of knowledge that I consider SOTW to be, and more often than not, when I get to hear how the reviewer (or some of the contrarians) plays... ouch! I think "wow, how could they? haha... I want a quarter of that self-esteem" 😅

I guess if you were reading a racing car / off-road vehicle review by me (I drive a little car to the supermarket, to my gigs, and back home) it's not gonna be of much use to the knowledgeable ones.

So there's that... I think it's always helpful to upload a video of your playing when you're reviewing a product. But always better to share than not share.
 
#24 ·
I think it's always helpful to upload a video of your playing when you're reviewing a product. But always better to share than not share.
A brief biography would be useful. It is useful to know whether the presenter has any pertinent experience, what kind of music they play, and their baseline setup.
 
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#28 ·
After my brow beating here, I was like ***, I know some of these guys have Eastern Music horns, so someone else must have concluded they were decent horns. So, I did a quick search and found this:
One of your esteemed members talking about how good Eastern Music Instruments are, and that they are comparable to the higher end like.. Antigua and P. Muorawhatever. Hmmm.. imagine that.

So, me, Johnny Come Lately, with less than one year of play time, buys one before ever joining this forum, makes that same conclusion, independently, but my opinion is pooh poohed, because I don't have the credentials to have an opinion. The guy tells me I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but when he says they are comparable in quality, it's ok, because he's got the credentials to say whatever he wants.

Whatever, I get it. There's something to be said for reputation, and I have none here. I wrote what I wrote, and I stand by my conclusion.

All I can say is, WAY TO ENCOURAGE NEW MEMBER PARTICIPATION!

My replacement ProOne is now on it's way, hopefully without the problems, and a lighter action, and I get to evaluate it all over again.
 
#30 ·
So, me, Johnny Come Lately, with less than one year of play time, buys one before ever joining this forum, makes that same conclusion, independently, but my opinion is pooh poohed, because I don't have the credentials to have an opinion. The guy tells me I'm comparing Apples to Oranges, but when he says they are comparable in quality, it's ok, because he's got the credentials to say whatever he wants.

Whatever, I get it. There's something to be said for reputation, and I have none here. I wrote what I wrote, and I stand by my conclusion.

All I can say is, WAY TO ENCOURAGE NEW MEMBER PARTICIPATION!

My replacement ProOne is now on it's way, hopefully without the problems, and a lighter action, and I get to evaluate it all over again.
Way to hang tough, Ves. You go for it!

May you get what you want, and want what you get.
 
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#32 ·
Ok, I also own the same Eastern Music tenor and have owned several 2001 and Blue Label tenors. While the tone is very close to that of the 2001, it’s not even close when it comes to build quality, materials or design. I sold my last 2001 because I though at the time I wouldn’t be able to play anymore. Despite that fact, I wasn’t going to be without a horn, so kept the Eastern Music because I was in it for very little. Were I a playing professional, I would keep the 2001 over an Eastern Music horn 100% of the time. Of course this is just my take and if the OP is happy with his horn, all is well!
 
#33 ·
Well, since you brought it up again. I got my replacement ProOne (different instrument) and played it exclusively for a week.

The low D# pad still sticks. Not as bad as the instrument I returned; if I break it free when I start, it doesn't re-stick enough during playing to make a difference. But they did lower the spring tensions, so that probably helps. I'm guessing if the spring tension was as before, it would still stick as much. It is what it is. I still say that problem should not be there given the cost of the instrument. I'm also guessing it will go away with some more use and cleaning.

Switching back to the Eastern again after playing the ProOne makes some things very obvious.
  • The first ProOne I tried was kind of dud with one of the Bb fingerings and the low D. This one seems to be better. That's surprising.
  • ProOne is slightly darker and richer, not by much but it is. I like dark and rich. I did try it with a small chamber high baffle MP, and yeah, it can be bright also. Too bright for my taste.
  • Intonation is comparable. I don't feel like I need to do any gymnastics with either one. Or at least the gymnastics are similar.
  • ProOne is more free blowing; less resistance. Also a surprise, because with the previous one that was not the case. The Eastern was better.
  • ProOne The low notes definitely pop out with less effort. I'm believe the "more linear" response part of the marketing.
  • Yes, the Eastern is more "clunky"; things are just a bit looser, but some of the key movements are shorter (which I like).
  • The Eastern overtones better; easier and the overtones are closer to being in tune soon as they pop. On the ProOne they are sharp, and it's tough to bring them down. Maybe it's the tuning point, maybe it's just me, whatever.

These are all minor differences, but I'm feeling like my first ProOne was a bit of a lemon, so maybe there was a reason it was less expensive than the other one's they were selling. I know it's not unheard of that the same model can vary from instrument to instrument.

Switching back and forth between the Eastern and the new ProOne is pretty seamless. I'm not a pro, but I doubt any of this would make a hill of beans difference in a performance, other than tone. So, it comes down to preference, feel, aesthetics, bells and whistles, and the unrelenting pursuit of quality... and the size of your wallet. Sure, the ProOne is a higher quality instrument, construction is more precise, more bells and whistles, but more money. The ProOne is nice, and this one seems better than the last one, but it's not 3x+ nicer. But, that's how it is with all things... the cost of a higher end item is not linear to it's actual cost to construct nor it's actual increase in quality or performance. There are cost multipliers and marketing involved.

So, all things considered... it's a toss up. Eastern wins the value contest, but ProOne wins the overall quality and refinement. Overall playability on both is good enough. It's like Chevy vs BMW. Both will get you from point A to B, but if you have a taste for the finer things in life, and can afford them, then ProOne it is. I'm keeping them both for now.
 
#36 ·
Well, since you brought it up again. I got my replacement ProOne (different instrument) and played it exclusively for a week.

The low D# pad still sticks. Not as bad as the instrument I returned; if I break it free when I start, it doesn't re-stick enough during playing to make a difference. But they did lower the spring tensions, so that probably helps. I'm guessing if the spring tension was as before, it would still stick as much. It is what it is. I still say that problem should not be there given the cost of the instrument. I'm also guessing it will go away with some more use and cleaning.

Switching back to the Eastern again after playing the ProOne makes some things very obvious.
  • The first ProOne I tried was kind of dud with one of the Bb fingerings and the low D. This one seems to be better. That's surprising.
  • ProOne is slightly darker and richer, not by much but it is. I like dark and rich. I did try it with a small chamber high baffle MP, and yeah, it can be bright also. Too bright for my taste.
  • Intonation is comparable. I don't feel like I need to do any gymnastics with either one. Or at least the gymnastics are similar.
  • ProOne is more free blowing; less resistance. Also a surprise, because with the previous one that was not the case. The Eastern was better.
  • ProOne The low notes definitely pop out with less effort. I'm believe the "more linear" response part of the marketing.
  • Yes, the Eastern is more "clunky"; things are just a bit looser, but some of the key movements are shorter (which I like).
  • The Eastern overtones better; easier and the overtones are closer to being in tune soon as they pop. On the ProOne they are sharp, and it's tough to bring them down. Maybe it's the tuning point, maybe it's just me, whatever.

These are all minor differences, but I'm feeling like my first ProOne was a bit of a lemon, so maybe there was a reason it was less expensive than the other one's they were selling. I know it's not unheard of that the same model can vary from instrument to instrument.

Switching back and forth between the Eastern and the new ProOne is pretty seamless. I'm not a pro, but I doubt any of this would make a hill of beans difference in a performance, other than tone. So, it comes down to preference, feel, aesthetics, bells and whistles, and the unrelenting pursuit of quality... and the size of your wallet. Sure, the ProOne is a higher quality instrument, construction is more precise, more bells and whistles, but more money. The ProOne is nice, and this one seems better than the last one, but it's not 3x+ nicer. But, that's how it is with all things... the cost of a higher end item is not linear to it's actual cost to construct nor it's actual increase in quality or performance. There are cost multipliers and marketing involved.

So, all things considered... it's a toss up. Eastern wins the value contest, but ProOne wins the overall quality and refinement. Overall playability on both is good enough. It's like Chevy vs BMW. Both will get you from point A to B, but if you have a taste for the finer things in life, and can afford them, then ProOne it is. I'm keeping them both for now.
Who brought it up again? You. There was no activity on the thread for ten days before you woke it back up. Interesting how having a tech go through the instrument resulted in a much better outcome, if only a few people with knowledge and experience had mentioned that 🤷‍♂️
 
#39 ·
Saxophones are made with a lot of parts, many pads that need to seal well, many of those mechanisms interacting with others. All this can present opportunities for leaks and a lousy playing horn. No manufacturer is immune to leaks in a new horn, be it poor QC or poor packaging for shipment. Even Selmer is known for arriving with leaks that need immediate attention. Unfortunately the nature of the beast. Have I owned horns that needed nothing when I got them? Yes, though they were the exception. Coincidently, the two cheapest horns I own arrived playing perfectly, so there’s little relationship with cost.
 
#41 ·
As far as mechanisms go, a saxophone is not that complicated. It's levers. The bottom line is it has a couple dozen holes that need to seal up on demand. It's not rocket science. It's basic mechanics which haven't changed much for decades; make the parts precisely, assemble them precisely, test it, if it doesn't work properly adjust it until it does, or scrap it. Maybe 50-80 years ago these excuses could be made, but not with today's technology. An if it happens in shipping there' no excuse either; package it better, test the packaging to make sure.

You still don’t seem to understand the price point that you are buying. $2000-$5000 doesn’t buy the equivalent of a new BMW. That “business opportunity” you mention is called an “instrument repair technician”. If every horn at your price point had the commensurate attention from a tech before shipping, the cost would no longer be in the same price point, and yet it would still be set up to some generic specification that would not be ideal for everyone (ex. spring tension).
Enjoy your new Kia.
Not buying that either. I'll take working to a consistent standard over "let's open the box and see if it works", any day. Apparently everyone accepts that even the BMW's of the sax world have the same problems. That's just wrong, and I don't get why anyone thinks it's excusable. It's one thing to have preferences (springs) and adjust it to that, it's another that it doesn't work right. Your right that it's good business for the techs! But the fact that a tech can spend an hour or two to get it working, with minor adjustments, just shows that the manufacturers aren't doing their jobs. What does a tech cost $100/hour max? If the manufacturer wants to raise the price of a sax by $100, to insure that it works right out of the box, seems like a pretty good deal to me. It doesn't take it out of the price point. But frankly, I'm sure there's plenty of profit in even a $2000 sax to justify taking a little more time in the final setup.

This is actually the main issue with most things made in China. There's this mentality that getting 95% of the way there is good enough, the attention to detail is lacking, and it takes good oversight to get them past that last 5%. The Japanese on the other hand accept nothing less than 100% quality. And the French, I don't know... maybe they had too much wine and cheese during lunch break. I'd be wiling to bet the Yamaha's are probably more consistent out of the box than Selmers.
 
#50 · (Edited)
It’s cool and hilarious you guys are continuing the same conversation using cars instead of saxes. Yup, there are good ones to be found in the value brands. It’s a sign when the auto industry stops offering anything new and the lower-end models are being loaded up with higher-end options. There’s no innovation and newcomers to the market are **** upon and not allowed to join in the other reindeer games. Kia and Hyundai are like the Taiwanese saxes now. There’s no Yugo to compare non-Japan or Taiwan Asian-made horns to in the US because we don’t allow new car makers a spot on the playing field in our free market economy.
 
#51 ·
It’s cool and hilarious you guys are continuing the same conversation using cars instead of saxes. Yup, there are good ones to be found in the value brands. It’s a sign when the auto industry stops offering anything new and the lower-end models are being loaded up with higher-end options. There’s no innovation and newcomers to the market are **** upon and not allowed to join in the other reindeer games. Kia and Hyundai are like the Taiwanese saxes now. There’s no Yugo to compare non-Japan or Taiwan Asian-made horns to in the US because we don’t allow new car makers a spot on the playing field in our free market economy.
I had a convertible Yugo 🤣
 
#56 · (Edited)
Well I bought a new pre Covid BMW and a Kia or a Yanagisawa TWO1 and Pro One Vintage laquer TS6200. Both were made in 2019.
The Yany was from new and setup by Sax.Co in the UK and shipped to the US. The Antigua Pro one was brand new in the box and never touched and opened by me.
To my surprise my massaged BMW from sax.co required additional tweaking to perfect the pad placement by slightly bending the cups - confirmed by my leak light. It got better and better after that as it broke in. A new sax requires play to seat new pads unless of course it was perfectly setup by the last tech who touched it before you pick it up.
My Kia aka as the Pro One was in
My opinion far better setup from the factory in Taiwan than the so called expert from the UK who looked over my Professional Japanese masterpiece. Take a look at my posts comparing these two if you have any doubts including pics.

As others have described it doesn’t matter if you buy a Rolls Royce Sax, it’s only as good as the last person who set it up.

The Pro One in my opinion remains a brilliantly researched and developed quality instrument with amazing tone and low end control like no other next to my previous rolled tone hole 1929 Conn NWII.
I bought the Yani for its quality and richer golden tone vs brighter Tenors I owned like the Early Yamaha YTS62 I had. The Yany was less bright, still is Golden but the Pro One is way more Ballsey, open, flexible and free blowing and sweeter to my ears than the refined and shall I say somewhat boring TW01. It plays top to bottom with ease like no other I have tried.
Like everything your mileage will vary. For fun I ran the Peter Ponzol designed neck off my P1 and put it on the Yanagisawa. Damn! What an amazing transformation. Intonation remained sharp but the TWO1 stepped up to the plate and said Let Me Sing! Far less resistance than before but still required less wind than the P1. So cool to try different combos.
The P1 neck also allowed me to play other mouthpieces that were too loose on the Std Yany neck that is designed for smaller shanked Yany mouthpieces. I guess they want to sell mouthpieces too.

I continued to play these saxes back to back. the ease of play, and overall sweet tone of the P1 kept brining me back. I cannot let this one go. I know and have felt your pain of the Quest to find the Right Tenor Sax regardless of price!

My Taiwanese Antiguap ProOne is like no other and is no longer being made. I talked to the new company that owns the brand. The Pro Ones are dead. I now realize that this is a current and under rated future classic.
Goodluck with your quest. It is a long and arduous adventure, but in the end it is worth it. You are close. Just get a good tech you trust to finalize the final adjustments regardless of what you end up with. Go for the tone, the feel and the character of the sax that speaks and feels right to you.

Guzziman
 
#57 ·
Rolled tone holes or rings welded onto toneholes are always a matter of concern for me...
Have you checked them on soprano, alto and tenor? How did you find them, are they level?
 
#58 ·
Well, I haven’t felt a need to check them…

when I inspected it new with a leak light, the pads sealed evenly and consistently all around. Playing it improved as the Pisoni’s broke in. Today, it plays just as well. I think I will run the light again and see how they are doing. The fact that only 5 tone holes are involved and the tests and playing give me absolute confidence in how well crafted the soldered rings are and the rest of the sax itself.

For reference Pro One has ringed not rolled tone holes on the lowest 5 keys only. I believe it is due to this construction that helps support the effortless and lush low end (plus the larger Bore and bell) that I enjoy so much. Comparing this to the 29 NWII and the very early 10M I owned previously.

Guzziman
 
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