Sax on the Web Forum banner

1 - 16 of 16 Posts

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just surfaced in the NL a King Super 22 alto.

Despite the fact that it may all look kosher there are a few details that make me very uneasy about this horn.

First of all the engraving that looks very similar to this other Super 22 which was obviously if not fabricated at the very least with the addition of enrgeved keys in a style more attuned to Chinese horns than American ones.

https://forum.saxontheweb.net/showthread.php?202430-Now-this-is-a-new-one-A-King-Super-22

The the fact that it says Cleveland while the company had already moved much earlier to Eastlake and actually by this time contemporary horns bore the designation USA with out a Cleveland or Eastlake.

Then there is a underslung neck (together with an overslung) which is absolutely NOT a King neck.

Click to expand


$_86.JPG
$_86.JPG
$_86.JPG
$_86.JPG
$_86.JPG
$_86.JPG
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #2 ·

Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
18,515 Posts
Yup ....to all you said.

I mean, if you look at the closeup of the neck, you can see its finish is different from the horn. So I dunno if seller addresses that in his ad or not.

It's a beautiful instrument, really is, and if they got the neck match correct I bet it plays really fine.

We know the 'other' 22 was, in fact, a forgery based upon the other seller's cagey replies to inquiries about it.

So, while it'd be fun to consider that HN White actually made some of these as prototypes....the fact that there is zero confirmable evidence of it leads us to another conclusion, for the time being.

I just don't understand why someone would actually ostensibly go to the cost of defacing an original engraving, searching for and purchasing (what we assume to be) a suitable replacement neck as far as intonation (again, giving seller benefit of doubt on this)....going to trouble and expense of adding pearls...and then try to pass it off as something rare when there is no history of such a model ever having existed.

How much is seller asking ???

What's the serial # on this one ?
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Only 鈧4200 :whistle: which would not be impossible to command in case this things was kosher.

Anyway, unlike the previous King Super 22, this has a full pearl arrangement.

I wonder if both were Ukraine made or if Silver Sax was a victim of the same 鈥 modifier鈥.

This alto is obviously recently overhauled with white pads. My hunch is that these have been made up recently by someone (Borodi?)

Again, is a hell of a lot of work if that鈥檚 the case.
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
WELL WELL!

Where does this OTHER King Super 22 (which surfaced in the NL) come from?

THIS too comes (like the tenor that we discussed above and was an obvious forgery) fro Ucraine for our member Silver-Sax!

It was sold on Ebay for $3500 5 oktober 2017!

https://www.ebay.com/itm/King-Super...=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

This is a very serious thing and worthy of the attention of our Administrators at the highest level!

This were the pics by Silver Sax auction (click to expand)

s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
s-l1600.jpg
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·

Registered
Joined
122 Posts
Is it possible that parts from a real S20 were used on another body? The keys and cup engraving would be hard to replicate and look real. The bell engraving is too weird and obviously non-factory. Has a "22" tenor ever materialized?
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Is it possible that parts from a real S20 were used on another body? The keys and cup engraving would be hard to replicate and look real. The bell engraving is too weird and obviously non-factory. Has a "22" tenor ever materialized?
It was for sale by Silver-Sax who, surprise surprise, also sold the the alto!

Silver sax has been involved in the sale of highly questionable other saxophones

this was an 鈥 original鈥 SBA Selmer

Silver-saxSelmerbariengravedkeys.jpg

and this was an 鈥 original鈥 B&S



all 鈥 like new鈥 and all in Ukraine. Silver Sax has a gift to find pristine and unique, never seen before, saxophones in Ukraine.

Amazing!:twisted:
 

Registered
Tenor, alto, Bb Clarinet, Flute
Joined
2,161 Posts
This makes me want to buy only from a reputable dealer. But then I don't think I'd pay more than about $1500 for any horn on ebay. It would have to be an amount small enough that I could live with it if I was ripped off. Fifteen hundred would sting for a while but $5000 would be a gut punch.


I wonder why someone would invest so much time and money to fake something like this. There must be enough meat left on the bone to make it worthwhile.
 

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
If we could trace back the Silver Sax buys on ebay we probably would find that there is quite a traffic of battered horns going in and reemerging not only 鈥 as new鈥 but in configurations never existed.

Similar stuff has been seen over the years made by an US shop Borodi Music which also has extraodinary models in extraordinary finishes. They are probably the sellers which have found the most two tone Silver and gold True tone ever.


I have to say the quality of work of both Borodi and Silver-Sax is outstanding. Yet, if one doesn鈥檛 disclose what has happened to something (let alone making a model that has never existed) prior to the sale this is rather poor a form ( understatement alert).
 

Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
18,515 Posts
Noted in eFlay auction as a "Limited Edition" model.....:|

So this goes beyond any conceivable misunderstanding, then.

The serial # makes this a very late Eastlake horn, a 2414. The horn was then recently engraved with its current engraving, which states Cleveland and 22.

So the horn was actually deliberately misrepresented in the auction.

(We dunno if the current seller, however, actually knows this or not.
He might have figured it out and is now trying to unload his purchase.
Or he may actually have no idea and simply wants to sell a horn he needs to sell, or isn't happy with...and is simply reiterating the info based on the supposition he purchased it under).
 

Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
18,515 Posts
I wonder why someone would invest so much time and money to fake something like this. There must be enough meat left on the bone to make it worthwhile.
My same question, but after pondering a bit....a 2414 sells for maybe $800 tops. One as pristine as that, perhaps $1000 on a GOOD seller's day.

By putting maybe $800-1200 of work into a $900 horn and getting $3500-4000 for it...isn't a slayin', massive ca-ching.... it is a pretty decent one.
The only ingredient needed for the recipe to succeed is an unsuspecting buyer....

In this instance, the buyer (if not happy with the horn and wanting to sell it) is ultimately screwed up the wazooooo. Because now all he has is a 2414 (a very decent sax, BTW) which has been sorta defaced with a forged bell engraving. It is the latter aspect which dooms him/her one way or the other. Because either they know it and have decided not admit it....or they do not realize it, but to prospective buyers it looks too fishy to ever roll the dice on.

While a nice, orig lacq, overhauled 2414 with nice custom engraving and nice after-factory pearl touches added (minus the fraudulent model name and location of course)...could conceivably fetch $1700-1900 or so on a good day.
 

Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
18,515 Posts
Is it possible that parts from a real S20 were used on another body? The keys and cup engraving would be hard to replicate and look real. The bell engraving is too weird and obviously non-factory. Has a "22" tenor ever materialized?
Just FWIW...a 2414 IS a real S20. It's an S20, for some reason King just stopped calling 'em S20's the last few years.

But I have caliper-measured 241X's against the earlier S20s...and they are S20's.

But if what you have is an Eastlake 241X...what you describe it as, then, is an Eastlake 241X....of course.

An engraver likely simply engraved the 2414 keycups as well....
 

Registered
Joined
122 Posts
Then I suppose one could look at this as a "resto-mod", which is fine in my book but shouldn't be presented as something it isn't.
 
  • Like
Reactions: AddictedToSax

Distinguished SOTW Coffee Guru
Joined
40,462 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
But one thing is to restore a horn to its former glory ( and telling the buyer that it has been restored) without any sign of the time past.

ANOTHER thing is creating a horn that has never existed and pass it for original and incredibly rare.

There is this Vault in Ukraine where every experimental model was sent for safekeeping controlled humidity and light have preserved the horns to perfection, except they have put white pads which didn鈥檛 exist at all ( not those anyway).
 

Distinguished SOTW Member, Forum Contributor 2016
Joined
18,515 Posts
Then I suppose one could look at this as a "resto-mod", which is fine in my book but shouldn't be presented as something it isn't.
Exactly, and herein lies the problem, really.

I mean...if you wanted to be super-lenient about it, one could even whip up a quasi-valid argument that post-factory engraving: "Super 20, Eastlake" on it...would have had some validity and not necessarily been 'lying'.

But this case goes way beyond that....
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
Top