[mi000ke]

I have read in this forum many fine analysis of improvisation as it relates to music theory, and it has really opened my eyes to the complexity (and rich possibilities) of improvising.

I was watching a sports show a few days ago where two analysts were dissecting the decision process that NE Patriot Tom Brady went through to throw a game winning pass with just a few seconds left in the football game. It took the two of them almost 10 minutes to explain the complexities that took Brady about 3 seconds to understand and react to.

It struck me that his decision was not unlike what we do when choosing notes to play during improvisation. He was improvising a play, and it appears that he either acted purely on instinct or was so familiar with the defensive patterns he was observing that he could go through his analysis almost instantaneously (again, even though after the fact it would take 10 minutes, slow motion video, and a white board to explain).

For you advanced players out there, when you are improvising, are you doing very fast harmonic analysis because of your familiarity with musical patterns (through lots of practice time and experience), or are you just going on pure instinct? That is, are you thinking about what to play or have you studied this stuff so much that you have essentially internalized how you will react to any harmonic situation and it just flows without thinking?

As an advanced intermediate (?), I am at the point where I can understand and intellectualize what I should be playing (and usually chose harmonically correct, if not interesting or inspired things to play), but I still need to think it through, even with tunes that are familiar.

I am just trying to understand where all this practicing is supposed to be taking me.

One more question (of millions) for now…As you advanced, did you gradually get closer to playing with “flow” over time, or did it happen all of a sudden one day, like turning on a switch?

 

[Bloo Dog]

As an advanced intermediate (?), I am at the point where I can understand and intellectualize what I should be playing (and usually chose harmonically correct, if not interesting or inspired things to play), but I still need to think it through, even with tunes that are familiar.


Oooh. "...should be playing..."

Learn the patterns. Learn harmony. Then play.

The best advice I have ever gotten came from two REALLY good players: Learn the melody, then recompose it. Play what's in your head.

That's what improvisation is.

If you over-intellectualize, you may stifle your playing and you may never develop a personal, reliable style.

 

[DECLANOMAD]

I find the talking mind to be rather un-musical. Analysis and study as preparation, but not for performance, except when you´re lost, which you shouldn´t be.
If you tend towards trance this will quiet the talking side of the brain. Tone and rhythm are good for this, and it´s is good for listening and control of the body. How can you talk and listen at the same time?? Listening is the way forward. Many people (not me) get into the flow from day one, they enjoy music naturally. Look at flamenco musicians to get the gist. I´ll look for a link now to give an example

 

[Atonal]

when you are improvising, are you doing very fast harmonic analysis because of your familiarity with musical patterns (through lots of practice time and experience), or are you just going on pure instinct? That is, are you thinking about what to play or have you studied this stuff so much that you have essentially internalized how you will react to any harmonic situation and it just flows without thinking?

One more question (of millions) for now…As you advanced, did you gradually get closer to playing with "flow" over time, or did it happen all of a sudden one day, like turning on a switch?

The bold type I added to your quote is how it works for me.

 

[Nefertiti]

I've had a few teachers tell me to "Learn everything and then forget it" I had no idea what they were talking about but now that I'm older I do. You have to learn the concepts so well that while improvising you can just empty your mind and go on instinct. I'm not saying you zone out and don't think but that the intellectual part becomes very easy. Instead of using 95% of your brain thinking about chords, scales, licks,etc...........and 5% instant and improvisation. You use 5% thinking about those things and the other 95% thinking creatively. That's my goal anyways. I'm still a long way from that point but I keep working towards it.

 

[Atratr]

More changes, speed, complex rythms=more practice work.
Simple tunes, slower= more intuitive play, still practice needed to play it good, but then you can relax more and play more natural.
So always practice a lot, get things on your fingers ear and head, so yo can then put intuition, unconsciusness to our playing.

 

[FawltyTenor]

When I'm listening and not "thinking", I'm generally playing the best.

In the Steve Grossman Berkley clinic audio, there's a great exchange about his improvisation process that speaks volumes, imho. It's been linked and references multiple times, but here's a link to David's original blog...
http://davidvaldez.blogspot.com/2008/12/steve-grossman-clinic.html

Starting at 33:32 Steve responds to a students questions about his preparation process..
St "You probably don't have to shed anymore?".. SG "Sure I do."

St "...What do you do...?" SG "I try to play by ear...I learned some things, I went to school, I studied... but I try to forget all that..."

St "I think you're playing is great! But, You had to go through process to get where you're at..." SG "Mostly by playing" (St) "And listening to cats?" SG "Most of it is just there. It's laid out on the records and in live music. You've got to shed, you've got to write stuff out, you've got to get your ears together...It's all there."

And on listening... St: "Who do you listen to?" SG "What do you think you should listen to....YOU." Steve has obviously listened to, absorbed, and assimilated his favorite influences into his own beautiful way of playing.

What I get out of this, is there is no shortcut. And, his comments about essentially following your own process reminds me of the movie Kung Fu Panda "There is no secret ingredient. The secret ingredient is you." Food for thought...

As Bunky Green put it "Theory following practice"...

Shawn

ps: I've listened to this many times, and am always inspired by this. There's not a lot of discussion, but the message is very clear. And, Steve plays incredible which really says it all....

 

[jisley]

Analysis is for the practice room.

Instinct is for the stage.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[MartinMusicMan]

No way am I an advanced player or even "advanced intermediate" and I'm not a jazzer either, but I've always thought the best way to develop any skill is to DO it as much as you can. In the case of improvising, actually improvising in live playing is the way to get better at improvising in live playing. To me that means getting together with 1, 2, or 3 or more players who also want to get better at improvising live and PLAY. There's another thread about this subject that refers to a utube vid of Brecker saying pretty much the same thing. If you can't find another person to play with, then you're reduced to Band In A Box or Jamey Aebersold or playing along with recordings, but to me that's still the best way to develop your ability to improvise. Along the way you have to figure out which scales and licks work in the improv, what notes to alter, what patterns to use, etc. When you can play the melody and rework it and you've improvised several times over the progression and know how it goes without thinking, then when you're on the bandstand it's all instinct and you play with "flow."

 

[mi000ke]

actually improvising in live playing is the way to get better at improvising in live playing.

Agreed. I am gigging about once per month between two bands (funk soul band and straight ahead jazz band), and rehearsing with each of them once per week. But even on the bandstand I'm still thinking "Am7 to D7; OK your in 1 sharp for this measure; resolving to Gm7 so maybe you want to add a flat 5 to that D7..." That kind of thing. Maybe not 95% thinking about what to play, but probably 50%. Now I'm usually able to do that fast enough to keep up with the tune (especially on ballads), and usually it's a tune I've played or practiced a hundred times before already, but still need to think through the harmonic landscape during my solo.

I've attached an example of what I consider a harmonically correct if not particularly creative solo from a recent gig. While playing this, I was mentally negotiating the changes and trying to be creative at the same time.

But given that you are all saying with enough practice it eventually becomes instinct at the point of performance, I'm just hoping that some day I can get there.

 

[Wade Cornell]

Nice playing with good tone. Not a very exciting solo though, and somewhat safe. Here's a question for you that is hinted at in some of the comments already. Is this the solo you would sing? When you can play as you would sing, then you're no longer thinking about written structure and instead "in the music". When you sing a tune you certainly don't think structure but "hear" what you are going to play. Playing what you want to hear adds 1000% as it all becomes intentional with appropriate emphasis/feeling. Take advantage of this and pity those who play instruments (like keyboards) that can't capture the vocal characteristics of the sax.

 

[piwikiwi]

Don't mean intuition instead of instinct since instinct is something you're born with. [/smartass ] I think you need to trust your intuition more, your mind has a lot things going on in the background, trust it.

 

[saxpiece]

That's a good point.

I don't agree with you but it's a good point.

I think it's both instinct and intuition myself and no matter how you slice it some people are just born with certain things that just can't be emulated with just hard work.

Not everyone can be a brain surgeon just by working hard I'm afraid.

 

[Bruce Jr Coluccio]

I have to say that you play by feel. The scale is there as suggestions, but the magic of improvising is the music that is made by you and the horn, imagination expressed in tone and feel. I never cease to be amazed at what comes out of my horn.

 

[phourtay]

you really should just be feeling it when you play, like you should be hearing how you're moving, not some much playing predetermined stuff (although i have the tendency to resort to things i know already work if i'm not really feeling it). but, it's about being in the moment, and that comes with knowing a song and being comfortable with it, not just knowing it in terms of what the changes are. the scales and theory are something you just work on to fortify you direct cognitive processes, but at the end of the day, you're gonna have to play without really thinking about things like what scale relates to this chord change. you're gonna really have to end up just hearing your idea rather than thinking where is it coming from...

 

[hgiles]

Yes, all the cerebral gymnastics and technical exercises are only done to cultivate our instinct.